tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post1333004342158907890..comments2024-03-25T12:31:58.169+00:00Comments on David Stimpson: Identification Or Bust!David Stimpsonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15196038086564981619noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-62332177198190603302012-10-04T09:33:38.163+01:002012-10-04T09:33:38.163+01:00Hello Mister Anonymous,
Thank you for the link...Hello Mister Anonymous,<br /><br /> Thank you for the link. I've taken a look, and yes it's very amusing, in fact it's given me an idea for a piece of blog. And makes me wonder if that is the usual sort of thing to happen during Presidential election debates, as we see it between the two busts, and on Number 6's televison screen in 'Free For All.'<br /> Thank you again.<br /><br />Very kind regards<br />David<br />BCNUDavid Stimpsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15196038086564981619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-9321107560165647032012-10-03T19:05:34.756+01:002012-10-03T19:05:34.756+01:00Hello David
I thought you might find the amusing:...Hello David<br /><br />I thought you might find the amusing:<br /><br />http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/9585034/US-presidential-debate-Mitt-Romney-to-attack-Barack-Obama-with-Joe-Bidens-words.html<br /><br />It would be easy to picture this as part of Free For All.<br /><br />Vote! Vote! Vote!<br /><br />Sincerely (with a smile)<br /><br />Mr. AnonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-91808658118029011052012-09-13T09:22:49.588+01:002012-09-13T09:22:49.588+01:00Hello Mister Anonymous,
My pleasure. Although ...Hello Mister Anonymous,<br /><br /> My pleasure. Although I never entered into the discussion myself, due to my lack of knowledge regarding Dante's Infurno, the Devine Comedy, Devine Twins, and Freemasonary, I did find it an interesting discussion, and I'm sure other readers of my blog did likewise.<br /><br /> I am only too pleased that friends and readers of my blog feel so much at home, that they can discuss something relating to 'the Prisoner' without my having to have any imput, and I'm sure there will be many more topics about 'the Prisoner' to discuss.<br /><br />Very Kind regards<br />David<br />BCNUDavid Stimpsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15196038086564981619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-47587965453990468822012-09-13T05:38:02.734+01:002012-09-13T05:38:02.734+01:00Hello David
I did think of one other theme, that ...Hello David<br /><br />I did think of one other theme, that of the Divine Twins, the use of good and bad twins in the series and the known influences on The Prisoner of Brave New World.<br /><br />Other than that all has been well discussed above.<br /><br />Thank you again.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. Anonymous <br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-23848834765357060132012-09-12T18:36:24.624+01:002012-09-12T18:36:24.624+01:00Hello David
Other than discussing what was the i...Hello David <br /><br />Other than discussing what was the intended fates of the three rebels you are probably correct.<br /><br />Thank you for your generous forum.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. AnonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-28117203551090453192012-09-12T11:36:55.783+01:002012-09-12T11:36:55.783+01:00Hello Everyone,
I'm highly delighted that...Hello Everyone,<br /><br /> I'm highly delighted that my original blog post here has generated such a lively discussion amongst it's readers. So much so that I've not felt the need to put my two-penny-worth in. However I am a little concerned that this discussion has been going on for too long, and I think the time has come to draw this discussion to a conclusion, as I think everything on this particular point has been said.<br /><br /> I thank Arno and Jana for their contributions to this discussion, and Mister Anonymous for getting the train on the track, for setting the discussion alight via Dante's Inferno. But sorry as I am, I find I have to de-rail you at this point.<br /><br />Very kind regards to all<br />David<br />BCNUDavid Stimpsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15196038086564981619noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-18639310892122032382012-09-12T08:11:30.312+01:002012-09-12T08:11:30.312+01:00Hi Mr. Anonymous,
yes, I'm still on the track...Hi Mr. Anonymous,<br /><br />yes, I'm still on the track again. What I wanted to say is that we simply can not tell whether McGoohan wanted to refer to Freemasonry or not. Therefore I still tend to assume that not, or not conciously or intentionally. In my opinion we should not try to put theories in and pretend to read his mind. (Although reading this I have to admit that we are doing exactly this half the time...)<br /><br />But despite my objections I'm appreciating the discussion :). I wanted to decrease the pace and wasn't sure what it is all about in your opinion. Your thoughts on The Divine Comedy and The Prisoner being summations of the society are a really good point. <br /><br />What about a hole in #1 ;)?<br /><br />Sincerely<br />Jana<br /><br /><br />Jananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-45577227838132022082012-09-12T03:13:27.817+01:002012-09-12T03:13:27.817+01:00Hello Jana
The good news is the symbols are neith...Hello Jana<br /><br />The good news is the symbols are neither pro or con Freemasonry they merely say that the No.2 of Free For All is Virgil/Voltaire who is No.6 guide in to the various circles of the Inferno.<br /><br />The rooms of The Village are circular to represent a different part of the allegorical journey through the circles of the Inferno.<br /><br />The Divine Comedy is considered to be a summation of the world view<br />Of the Middle Ages just as The Village is a summation of the society that would destroy the individual, '...a pocket democracy..a 20th century Bastille...' The Inferno is a prison for the 'devil' The Village is a prison for No.6/No.1.<br /><br />None of this requires any specialized knowledge.<br /><br />I am glad you are still enjoying the game.... I recommend you use your #6 iron on the next hole and I am certain you will get an Eagle.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. Anonymous Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-9958546756126053542012-09-11T21:57:32.842+01:002012-09-11T21:57:32.842+01:00Hi Mr Anonymous,
I'd like to take the bogie.
...Hi Mr Anonymous,<br /><br />I'd like to take the bogie.<br /><br />Just to sum up what I got from the speedlearn: There are Symbols that might be seen as symbols of freemasonry. Referring to those symbols The Prisoner might be read as Anti-Masonry. Right? Ok, from my point of view it's an interessting approach. <br /><br />But in my opinion despite from the symbols and their interpretation one has to be careful not to draw to many references and links. Not everyone who reads Arthur Conan Doyle or Goethe and perhaps even uses their symbols deals necessarily with Masonry ;). And I still think that McGoohan addressed a broader audience than Freemasons and Anti-Freemasons.<br /><br />Kind regards,<br />Jana<br />BCNU<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Jananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-57209974084078297622012-09-11T16:21:51.449+01:002012-09-11T16:21:51.449+01:00Hello Jana
The train has pulled into the station....Hello Jana<br /><br />The train has pulled into the station... just for your perusal..<br /><br />http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/prisoner/pics/f423.jpg<br /><br />http://whatisthepyramid.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mexico.masonic.lodge.room.op.jpg<br /><br />... or anyone else who might want to take a look into the Council Chamber....;-)<br /><br />http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/freemasons-10.jpg<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. AnonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-30267689766098080722012-09-11T15:26:03.835+01:002012-09-11T15:26:03.835+01:00Hello Jana
P.S. I am certain the train is still o...Hello Jana<br /><br />P.S. I am certain the train is still on the track... at least more than these are ....;-))<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JORMGEA3w<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cyhBroQsNA<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. AnonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-38335772445694309862012-09-11T15:11:47.185+01:002012-09-11T15:11:47.185+01:00Hello nr6de and Jana
Thank you nr6de for the invi...Hello nr6de and Jana<br /><br />Thank you nr6de for the invitation. I will see what I can put together and keep you informed.<br /><br />Just a note to Jana ... the link of The Prisoner to Freemasonry symbolism would be no great leap for Mr. McGoohan or any other author who might have enjoyed the exploits of Sherlock Holmes or Riders of the Purple Sage, both sources that Mr. McGoohan has mentioned was part of his reading list.<br /><br />An example of this would be the Sherlock Holmes novel The Valley of Fear (1914)<br /><br />Among the clues are a card with the symbol V.V.341 scrawled upon it, referring to the Ancient Order of Freemen, the "The Scowrers", Lodge 341, Vermissa Valley, USA. "There is no town without a lodge" and "grips and passwords are helpful. A brand mark on the arm of the murder victim: an equilateral triangle inside a circle. [AQC xciii 3]<br /><br />London : Smith, Elder, 1915,189p <br /><br /> "John McMurdo", said the voice, "are you already a member of the Ancient Order of Freemen?"<br /> He bowed in assent.<br /> "Is your lodge No. 29, Chicago?"<br /> He bowed again. <br /><br />The Freemasons were a rather common 'boogeyman' organization in various novels... the idea that Professor Moriarty might have some dealings with a rouge Lodge #341 and that The Village with all it's symbols, rituals,secret trials and salutes would be a very natural extension of that literary tradition.<br /><br />Perhaps The Village is it's own Valley of Fear and is just Lodge #6. ;-)<br /><br />Any way all the posts above are there to have a new way to look at and enjoy The Prisoner and to hopefully have some entertainment value for you.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. AnonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-44674864037013072832012-09-11T14:36:45.001+01:002012-09-11T14:36:45.001+01:00Mr. Anonymous, what if you collected the arguments...Mr. Anonymous, what if you collected the arguments you've brought forth and wrote an article especially on the McGoohan/Dante issue and the cirles of hell which I'd be prepared to publish on my website. Not many people will be familier with this subject. Perhaps you've taken a look at it. Please use the feedback form on my website. - BCNU!nr6dehttp://www.nummer6-theprisoner.denoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-81437267642315061732012-09-11T13:13:45.718+01:002012-09-11T13:13:45.718+01:00Hello Jana
Apologies, the link to Freemasonry is ...Hello Jana<br /><br />Apologies, the link to Freemasonry is that Voltaire was a Freemason, initiated by Benjamin Franklin.<br /><br />The poetry and symbols are more cultural than religious.<br /><br />Answers always raise more questions and then more doubt ... So we must be on to something.<br /><br />I respect your position.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. Anonymous Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-54635010677574156502012-09-11T11:02:06.621+01:002012-09-11T11:02:06.621+01:00Hello Mr Anonymous,
that's a big jump your tr...Hello Mr Anonymous,<br /><br />that's a big jump your train took, isn't it? At least I can not see any rails that lead from Dante to Masonry.. <br /><br />So this is what you are going to.. I hope you don't mind, but I really don't want to discuss this theme. I know much to little about free masonry. The only thing I'm sure about that I see many contradictions and questions regarding this (For example McGoohan obviously did not want religion/church to be a theme in The Prisoner, did he?). <br /><br />I agree that it might be an enthralling, but I doubt that it is a neccessary view. The problem I see with such symbols as the throne and the eye: Of course they can be linked to free masonry, there are so many things that can be and are linked, by hook or by crook, to free masonry. But they can also be seen as simply representing centralized power and control. In my opinion the symbolism of The Prisoner is rich enough even without referring to the free masons.<br /><br />But I enjoyed our discussion, I did, and you made me curious about Dante. Thanks for this! <br /><br />Kind regards,<br />Jana<br />BCNU<br />Jananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-14538898481180269042012-09-10T20:24:10.052+01:002012-09-10T20:24:10.052+01:00Hello Jana
A correction, the statement the reads:...Hello Jana<br /><br />A correction, the statement the reads:<br /><br />The resemblance of the Council Chamber to two items is unmistakeable. One is the inner chamber of a Masonic Temple the other is the structure behind No.3 described by Mr. McGoohan as a 'throne'(see link).<br /><br />Should read:<br /><br />The resemblance of the Council Chamber to two items is unmistakeable. One is the inner chamber of a Masonic Temple the other is the structure behind NO.2 described by Mr. McGoohan as a 'throne'(see link).<br /><br />The caps are emphasis.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. AnonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-28838444043877415682012-09-10T19:33:13.086+01:002012-09-10T19:33:13.086+01:00Hello Jana
P.S. The wonderful thing about The Pr...Hello Jana<br /><br />P.S. The wonderful thing about The Prisoner as the allegory, that Mr. McGoohan has said it is, there is always room for plenty of doubts, one way or another... in fact I think Mr. McGoohan more than welcomed the doubts of of Doubting Thomas or Doubting Thomasina, as however the case may be. ;-)<br /><br />http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/549980.1020.A.jpg<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. AnonymousAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-16697349252841911252012-09-10T18:54:04.124+01:002012-09-10T18:54:04.124+01:00Hello Jana
I have decided the best way to approac...Hello Jana<br /><br />I have decided the best way to approach The Prisoner as The Divine Comedy is to conclude the insight that the No.2 played by Mr. Portman is indeed Virgil/Voltaire as intended by design by Mr. McGoohan.<br /><br />If you read the original script of Free For All you will find that Mr. McGoohan gives a precise description of the Council Chamber, that Art Director: Mr. Jack Shampan, does not deviate from. The resemblance of the Council Chamber to two items is unmistakeable. One is the inner chamber of a Masonic Temple the other is the structure behind No.3 described by Mr. McGoohan as a 'throne'(see link).<br /><br />The 'throne' mentioned above bears the distinctive features of the 'Eye of Providence' in the form seen on the US dollar bill with the famous phrase 'Novus Ordo Seclorum' a direct quote from the roman poet Virgil, Dante's, and by extension, No.6 guide through the Inferno.<br /><br />http://images.unurthed.com/Campbell-Great-Seal-of-the-United-States-127.jpg<br /><br />http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/all_seeing_eye/prisoner04.jpg<br /><br />Mr. McGoohan was meticulous in his in his description of his symbols in his very first script which was not altered when the production went into production and took great care in the shooting of the interior shots of Free For All which he directed.<br /><br />In each of the scripts that Mr. McGoohan writes he has No.6 pass deeper into the substructures of The Village until his arrival in a cave like chamber not unlike the 9th circle of the Inferno (where there dwells No.1).<br /><br />The escape that is made from The Village in all manner is like that of Virgil and Dante from the Inferno by falling through the center of the earth much as No.6 must escape down the long tunnel.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. Anonymous<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-11294613602740123902012-09-09T05:42:00.644+01:002012-09-09T05:42:00.644+01:00Hello Jana
Your questions are interesting valid a...Hello Jana<br /><br />Your questions are interesting valid and can be addressed. <br /><br />What you will find is that Mr. McGoohan gave wide creative freedom to his writers. An example, the writer of Dance of the Dead drew from the film Orpheus and the film rendering of Daniel Webster and the Devil. One writer said he had 'not one scrap of paper' about The Prisoner and another reference referred to the series as a 'cosmic void'. It is a myth that the series was guided by the script editor in a struggle for control of the series.<br /><br />The above said however Mr. McGoohan was in firm control of the direction and content of the series through his own authorship. <br /><br />The basis for seeing the series as a contemporary rendering of the Divine Comedy is anchored in the process of how Mr. McGoohan worked in creative collaboration to create the template for the series.<br /><br />Yes there are some 'witnesses'.<br /><br />I will elaborate in my next post.<br /><br />Sincerely <br /><br />Mr. Anonymous<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-79937600465802940862012-09-07T21:39:04.381+01:002012-09-07T21:39:04.381+01:00Hi Mr Anonymous,
speedlearn, really? Why do I dou...Hi Mr Anonymous,<br /><br />speedlearn, really? Why do I doubt this? ;)<br /><br />But I agree, one can see this as another way to enjoy The Prisoner. It seems to be a rich brain nut.<br /><br />In my opinion some question the issue arises are all those doubts and questions during the whole discussion above, and some more. For example: Are there Call Sheets that call directly and explicitely for the busts you identified? Or at least witnesses who where asked for it? And how does Dantes Inferno fit with Shakespeares "As You Like It" that was cited in OUAT? What about the other episodes? If there are similarities to Dante, too, wouldn't that mean, that in a way some of the writers must have known about McGoohans plans? Did one of them ever talk about it? If not, why? Or are all similarities or symbols explainable by McGoohans influences? How? <br /><br />Don't get me wrong, no need to anwer this, I just wanted to share my thoughts what might be other questions regarding this issue.<br /><br />Regards.<br />BCNU<br />Jana<br /> Jananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-83445751971413892332012-09-07T18:12:00.570+01:002012-09-07T18:12:00.570+01:00Hello Jana
Yes, a speed learn version of the Divin...Hello Jana<br />Yes, a speed learn version of the Divine Comedy (think wiki) would help to enjoy the suggestion of The Village as the Inferno.<br /><br />You might enjoy the scene from First Men In Moon where a scientist thinks he has an audience with the supreme leader but is actually on trial, as is No.6..... still.<br /><br />As to the monarchs as god guys, well if the former No.2 gets a pass why not the monarchs.<br /><br />Think of all the above as just another way to enjoy The Prisoner.<br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. Anonymous Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-80036188730375535652012-09-07T10:00:04.918+01:002012-09-07T10:00:04.918+01:00Hi Mr Anonymous,
I guess nobody could get your tr...Hi Mr Anonymous,<br /><br />I guess nobody could get your train off its rails any more ;). But I must admit, I'm not totally convinced, and I'd rather take busses or drive cars. Maybe it's one rail, amongst others. <br /><br />But,amongst other doubts: Number Six wasn't on trial in Fall Out, he watched it, as a kind of honorary president. Why should Friedrich III be a kind of honorary president at a trial at the ninth circle of hell? Why should Patrick McGoohan want that? I don't understand this, I really find it quite contradictory. Is it because I don't know Dantes Inferno?<br /><br />And why should McGoohan want the three monarchs to be the good guys in the end?<br /><br />BCNU<br />Jana<br />Jananoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-27806371720252443252012-09-07T08:19:15.664+01:002012-09-07T08:19:15.664+01:00Ahem, sorry wrong number last time: "nr6de&qu...Ahem, sorry wrong number last time: "nr6de" of course. Of course, I am not a number, I am a person... - BCNU!nr6dehttp://www.nummer6-theprisoner.denoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-56869067659699391572012-09-06T21:02:30.218+01:002012-09-06T21:02:30.218+01:00Hello nr5de
Wilhelm II was 29 when he came to the...Hello nr5de<br /><br />Wilhelm II was 29 when he came to the throne many felt he lacked the experience to be Emperor and he remained petulant till his abdication. <br /><br />It is a period of history and human nature that is on trial through allegorical stand ins. Much as is the case in the allegorical poetry of the Divine Comedy.<br /><br />Yes, Mr. McGoohan had contemporary sources for each of his inspirations (such as the teleplay The Prisoner'). Would you care to hear about them? They are mostly as Mr. MCGoohan has said from around 1962, however some come a little earlier say around 1959, including the spy No.6 was based on and yes The Village not only was real it still exist.<br /><br />Sincerely <br /><br />Mr. Anonymous <br /><br />P.S. I think by the time you load up The Village band all those statues the Penny Farthings Edwardian costumes, etc I think you must admit that it is one long freight train of evidence with the next stop as Willoughby of the 9th Circle of the Inferno..... ;-). Well Come to uncharted territory.<br /><br /><br />Sincerely<br /><br />Mr. Anonymous Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9036104775563265647.post-28139467047710960072012-09-06T20:16:51.338+01:002012-09-06T20:16:51.338+01:00No matter what one thinks of your arguments in par...No matter what one thinks of your arguments in particular what we have here is truly a fine discourse. KW Zwo, as he is called sometimes, was 55 in 1914 when he precipitantly gave carte blanche to the Austro-Hungarian monarchy whose actions subsequently caused WWI. According to WP, "Bombastic and impetuous, he sometimes made tactless pronouncements on sensitive topics without consulting his ministers..." So, inexperienced he may well have been. And of course out of luck. But still, symbolism yes or no, naming Alexis Kanner in one breath of air with KW Zwo I cannot agree with you. What I wrote earlier isn't quite correct either. Because the father/son conflict of FO isn't just one of personal ties or dislikes but one of the generation conflict or crisis as evident in many Western societies during that period. As such the President is symbolically called "Dad" by the Kid. And in OUAT I can see a role play rather than a conflict of that kind. Called by some a conservative rebel, I take it that PMcG got most of his inspirations from that contemporary sources. The use of classical 19th century music or busts notwithstanding. Anyway, thanks for your lines that certainly open up (to me) uncharted territory. - BCNU!nr5dehttp://www.nummer6-theprisoner.denoreply@blogger.com