Then there's Number 9, who it appears was assigned to Cobb, Number 9 claimed that she was going to escape with Cobb, using the Electro Pass which she gained by knowing the last helicopter pilot. Well that's what she told Number 6. But what of Cobb, what caused his hospitalisation? Ah but I was forgetting, they came for him before he was expecting them, thus stopping any escape attempt dead in it's tracks! Or did it? I mean who was playing who? Number 9 obviously thought she was going to escape the Village with Cobb, as she had the Electro Pass. But was Cobb going to try and escape with Number 9? There he was, lying in a hospital bed, seemingly confused, seemingly to have undergone a series of interrogations. And yet, suddenly his suicide, and subsequent death had been faked. Futhermore, by the end of the episode there's Cobb in the Control Room with Number 2, compus mentus, washed, shaved and dressed ready for the city, ready to serve his new masters. Such a sudden turn around in Cobb's fortune, from Prisoner to.......to what, an agent of the Village? If Cobb could be turned in so short a time, it begs the question why did the Village administration fail with Number 6?! Perhaps the techniques used against Number 6 were not the same as those used on Cobb. But whatever the techniques, Cobb seemed to be leaving the Village undamaged, sound, and possibly the same man he was on the day of his arrival in the Village. Or perhaps it was the case that Cobb did not resist in the same manner as Number 6.
I've often thought that Cobb's appearence in 'the Prisoner' is somewhat contrived, that it might have been more fitting if the Priosner had met with Chambers late of the Foreign Office, as menioned during the de-briefing session of the Prisoner on the morning of his arrival in the Village.
I'll be seeing you
In the German version, prior to his abduction Cobb was - in France. We don't know why. I can only imagine that at the time the TV station editors wouldn't have liked to see something indecent happen, since everything was going very correctly here. Better it happend somewhere else.
ReplyDeleteCobb was clearly inserted into the Village by the Village to gain Number Six'confidence. And, of course, it is the intention to puzzle viewers, to indicate that anything could happen. The question I think more interesting is why in the Village where the inmates are known only by number as a matter of there are quite a few people with names! Why is it so? For more see me theorising: http://www.match-cut.de/spdln/spdln01.htm#spdlne - BCNU!
Hello Arno,
DeleteThat's very interesting, how in the German version Cobb should be in France rather than Germany. But I don't see Cobb as having been brought to the Village simply to gain the Prisoner's confidence. If that had been the case, then the doctor would have given them more time together on the ward before he interupted them. Also why go to all the trouble of faking Cobb's death. Yes to the Prisoner Cobb is now dead, but they could simply have removed Cobb from the hospital, and the Prisoner would be none the wiser to what happened to him.
Everyone has a number, for official purposes, and in the Village names are not used, so they say. But then again they are, in the case of a relationship, friendship, or with old colleagues. The Prisoner used Cobb's name because they are old colleagues, just as it is with Roland Walter Dutton. But why did the hospital orderly and the new Number 2 use Cobb's name, and why was not Duttons number on his termination order, instead of his name? I think in these two cases, the use of both Cobb and Dutton's names are for the benefit of the television viewer. To have used Cobb's name, and that of Dutton {Number 42} in the first instance, but then to use their numbers later, especially on the termination order, might have confused the television viewer. In 'The Schizoid Man' both Alsion's name and her Number {24} are used in her relationship of sorts with Number 6, but she does not use his name. Nadia Rakosky tells Number 6 her name, he does not be polite and tell her his name. The use of names in the Village are ambiguous, but not without reason.
I shall use the link you gave me, and have a read of your theorising.
Regards
David
BCNU
In my opinion Cobb has been an agent of the village right from the start. Placed at the hospital to fool the Prisoner with his faked death. They knew that Number 9 would mourn ( regarding the escape I think Cobb was betraying her, too) and got it right that the Prisoner would try to contact her recognizing that she must have been a friend of Cobb.
ReplyDeleteJust a thought regarding names, if Cobb was an agent right from the start, then perhaps he did not need any number? Also the Prisoner is (in this case) the only one who addresses him by his name. But that doesn't explan Nadja, Roland Walter Dutton and Alison, of course..
Hello NoNo,
DeleteYes they fooled the Prisoner with the fake suicide, so that to him Cobb is dead. I suppose Cobb could have been placed on the ward because of the Prisoner. But I'm sure Cobb wasn't brought to the Village especially for that purpose. I cannot see Cobb being an agent of the Village before he was brought to the Village. I think that like Number 2 of 'The Chimes of Big Ben/Once Upon A Time' he was brought to the Village as a Prisoner, and then turned to work for the Village, and so they made use of him as a hospital patient.
You are mistaken that it is only the Prisoner who addresses Cobb by name, the new Number 2 also address Cobb by his name in the Control Room as Cobb is dressed in his business suit, clearly eager not to keep his new masters waiting!
Regarding Nadia, Alison, Roland Walter Dutton, and Monique, I direct you to the reply comment I made on this matter to nr6de.
By the by, Fortherigay is another name used in the Village, however I do not count the Prisoner's use of this name, as Fotheringay is not supposed to be in the Village, but London. Although this does not take into account Number 2 using Fotherigay's name. Unless of course Number 2 knew Fotheringay back in London! By the way Number 2 speaks to Fotheringay, it seems he is an agent working for the Village {so to the Colonel} who possibly shouldn't be away from the office, hence the possibility of any embarrassing questions.
Regards
David
Be seeing you
I'm intrigued that his name is the acronym for Episode Two. Of all the names in all the world...... they chose that one.
ReplyDeleteFrom the "autobiographical allegory" aspect, it is also intriguing that Paul Eddington was genuinely an old friend of Patrick McGoohan. This aspect was commented on in press releases of the time, and Eddington quoted with his complimetary descriptions of "this man McGoohan".
nr6de said:
ReplyDelete@ For more see me theorising: http://www.match-cut.de/spdln/spdln01.htm#spdlne - @
I noticed in that piece you wrote:
"what is striking is that individuals with names obviously cannot be trusted and they would act aginst Number Six"
It struck me that the ones you mention actually were "supposed" to be friends of No6. The fact that they turned out to be his enemy, was a twist in the plot. Cobb, Alison, Nadia and Dutton all are believed by No6 to be his friend or at least an ally, so in that sense they are given names because they are his personal friends... not just another number. Even the watchmaker and his daughter (who have names too) are meant to be allies of sorts - opposed to the village at least.
I'm not sure where Curtis fits into this Theory of Names however.... ;-D
The matchcut.de site is by far the best prisoner site (with content in English at least) btw. My Compliments to the webmaster. Nice to be in there with you... ;-)
Moor
Thanks! Rewarding to experience people still discussing that old stuff after so many years, even in Germany. David made me aware that in my article Curtis and Monique are missing. I'll have to think about it and rework the entry later. Fotheringay I wouldn't take into account here because he's not part of the Village world.
ReplyDeleteThe COBB acronym, I recall, has been mentioned somewhere. But I doubt it's of any significance. But where does No. 2 speak to Fotheringay? Time is not on my side. Not today. - BCNU!
Hello Arno,
DeleteI agree it is a rewarding experience, when people are prepared still to discuss the old stuff,it gets people talking and that helps break the ice with new fans to 'the Prisoner,' and encourages them to have a say. Of course to a new fan of 'the Prisoner,' the "old stuff" will be new to them, and is only old to people like us.
Yes, the COBB acronym has been mentioned before, I think it's an intersting point, but I agree it's hardly significant. It might not have even been recognised had 'The Chimes of Big Ben' not followed 'Arrival.'
As far as Number 2 speaking to Fotheringay, he does so on the steps of the Recreation Hall towards the end of the episode. Number 2 congratulates Fotheringay, and tells him to get back to London before any embarrassing questions are asked. Fortheringay asks Number 2 what his next assignment is? To which Number 2 replies "The Colonel will give you your orders when he returns."
Best wishes
David
Be seeing you
Alright! I blew it. Thanks David!
ReplyDeleteI think I have resolved the Curtis Conundrum. He only used his name when he was forced to by No6 after the bout of fisticuffs. I think the idea that No6's *friends* have names makes a fairly consistent narrative.
ReplyDeleteFotheringay, like Thorpe, doesn't count as No6 encounters them outside the village, as he did Mrs.Butterworth. Outside of the village, nobody is a number... are they?.... ;-)
Hello Moor,
DeleteOutside the Village, in "Officialdom" we are all numbers!
However 'in' the Village, I have come to think that numbers are more individual than names. In the Village there can only be one Number 6, 8, 12, and 14 for example at any one time, unless of course a number is subdivided such as in the case of 113b. Where as names, how common is the name Smith for example?
Regards
David
BCNU
"Fairly consistent narrative": intriguing enough but was it done intentionally or is it by chance? - BCNU?
ReplyDeleteHello Arno,
DeleteThat's the 64,000 Work-Unit question!
As ever
David
I recall Miss Bracknell exclaiming that to lose one parent might be seen as bad luck, but to lose both parents was downright careless.... :-D
DeleteIn a related logic, there are often so many consistencies to be discerned in The Prisoner, that to explain them as mere coincidences seems to demand a downright bloody-mindedness. I do think that perhaps many of them just *came along*, as McGoohan implied in his Troyer interview, but to imagine that he read script after script back then and never noticed the opening lines...
Who is Number One?
You are Number Six
could mean exactly what his programme was about, seems so unlikely as to be impossible. The fact that the misdirection of the delivery of this dialogue meant nobody watching noticed, is also amazing, but this is how theatre and drama works at its magical best.
Hello Moor,
DeleteVery well put. There can be either coincidences, or things can just happen as they do, or you can force it to be what you want it to be, as demonstrated in the dialogue taken from the opening sequence.
"Who is Number One?"
"You are Number Six."
This can be taken two ways, depending on the emphasis you place on the word "You." On the one hand Number 2 is telling the Prisoner that he is Number Six, which I actually think is the case. But if you change the emphasis of the word "YOU" it could be taken that Number 2 is telling the Prisoner that he is Number 1. But is this a contrivance on the part of the fans? Say it one way and it means one thing, say it another by altering the emphasis, and it means something else altogether. Had it not been for advent of 'Fall Out,' it is always possible that Number 1 might have turned out to be someone completely different, and then "You are Number Six" could only be taken the one way.
Regards
David
Be seeing you
Just to add one more side aspect to this issue: In this instance the German language requires to be precise: "You are No. 6." must become "Sie sind Nr. 6." Because grammar demands a so-called direct object which here is the impersonal pronoun "es". Thus all the ambuiguity is lost on saying "You are, No. 6!" = "Sind sind's, Nr. 6." meaning: Nr. 1. - BCNU
ReplyDeleteHello Arno,
DeleteAs always it's good to hear from you, and to hear of how different 'the Prisoner' is treated in various countries.
Regards
David
BCNU
But then "Nummer Sechs" would have had a whole different connotation in aural English... :-D
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that you can see there is an ambiguity, better than David seems to, at least... :-D
I was very interested reading that recent Franco-German piece about the re-televising of the show in Europe, that you kindly translated on your site btw. Rendering a show such as The Prisoner into another language must be fraught with difficulties. The incidental music, referencing British nursery rhymes/novelty songs (such as Pop goes the weasel) would elicit no emotional response to someone not familiar with them from childhood, or perhaps - if the tunes are used elsewhere for wholly different rhymes - possibly elicit a wholly inappropriate response.... :-D
Moor
"Language is a virus from outer space." No. 6 question "Who is No. 1?" is simply swept aside. All in all I think that the producers never deliberately injected ambiguity like this into the prologue: "You are No. 6." or "YOUR ARE, No. 6!" Although it is linguistically inherent, no doubt about that. - BCNU!
ReplyDeleteI would tend to agree that there was probably no *plan* for such an ambiguity. I think this is what McGoohan meant when he said to the Troyer audience that "they come because you're looking for them, you see."
ReplyDeleteI think I'm right in saying that this particular ambiguity never struck anyone in the fanbase until they began to study the "scripts". I think if they noticed this strange parallel, when studying the written word, then it would be arrogant to deny that McGoohan would not also have noticed. That he dared leave it in perhaps explains also why he was so very secretive about his plotting that even David Tomblin seemed confused about where this was all leading.
When you add in the fact that the prisoner had lived at No1, and lines in McGoohan's own script, Free for All, such as "If you win, then No1 will no longer be a mystery to you", and other similar hints, dotted about the episodes, I think that there are just too many coincidences to leave the doubt David still seems to harbour that @ it is always possible that Number 1 might have turned out to be someone completely different @
No David. McGoohan may have become confused as the show dilated into 17 episodes about exactly HOW he would make his *Reveal*, but to suggest he had no idea of this at the outset is just not a tenable proposition.
Interestingly McGoohan also threw in the McGuffin at the beginning of the series to suggest the real secret we would be following was WHY No6 resigned, so that early on in the series we weren't even interested in who No1 was, and by the time our curiosity began to grow, all those early clues (if you like) had become forgotten.
It's such a brilliant piece of misdirection and daring as to be unbelievable to those who cannot apprecaite the daring of the individual. A Committee of script editors would have buried all such *clues* in fear and compromise and complicated *editing*, much as happened in The Pris9ner.
Hiding in plain sight is the mark of a man.... :-D
Hello Moor,
DeleteWell Number 6 did win, and to the former Number 6, Number 1 was no longer a mystery to him as suggested by Number 2 of 'Free For All.' But until the advent of 'Fall Out,' no-one knew who Number 1 was, yes McGoohan might have had himself as Number 1 right from the very beginning, but at the time the television viewer didn't, and that's my point.
You said I couldn't see the ambiguity, but is not the ambiguity in the question and answer about who is Number 1, and the answer you are Number 6 during the opening dialogue? When I first watched 'the Prisoner,' and during the subsequent years, I always thought that Number 2 was telling Number 6 who he was, that he is Number 6. It wasn't until I joined Six of One that some bright spark came along and suggested that Number 2 is telling Number 6 that he is Number 1, depending on where you place the emphasis, so it could be either way.
Of course Number 1 could have turned out to be someone or something other than McGoohan himself. It was suggested by Alexis Kanner that Number 1 might have been Lew Grade. To be in full control of a television series, to be the 'Boss,' then to make oneself out to be Number 1 is surely the act of a megalomaniac, full of his own self-importance! This is demonstrated in the Prisoner's character during 'Checkmate, when Number 6 took command of the little venture to escape the Village. Number 6, like Patrick McGoohan, took on everything to do with the escape, just as McGoohan took command of 'the Prisoner production, and everything to do with it!
Regards
David
BCNU
Of course the ambiguity is not apparent until it occurs to you. Like so much about the show, it is not just what it is.... it is Brilliant!! .... :-D
ReplyDeleteYour comment about McGoohan TAKING command shows how deeply the Prisoner cult has influenced you. TAKE command? It was his from the beginning - he took nothing that was not already his own possession. This notion that he "took over" is simply stuff and nonsense. That he was arguably not the best "Manager" of the organisation he owned and ran, Everyman, is a more reasonable proposition, but I would not argue with his "bottom line". That he exhausted himself personally in body and mind is evidenced by his own admissions after he had finished the show with his concluding episode, but he had had enough of TV by then anyway. Before he even began the Prisoner project, he had said it would be the last thing he did for TV for a while.
There was absolutely no reason he HAD to make that a "concluding" episode you know. ITC series rarely if ever *concluded*. There were just no more episodes. Like Danger Man, the characters emerged fully-formed, and then they would dissappear again from whence they came, once the scripts ran out. That McGoohan weas determined to HAVE a conclusion perhaps demonstrates best that he always knew what that conclusion was to be. In Canada, where the show was first broadcast, CBC were a bit overly proactive and the series ended on their 13th episode, which was Chimes of Big Ben - a perfectly good place to end an enigmatic series and it would have been an easy way for McGoohan to have ended it, if that was ALL he wanted to do.
http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.co.uk/2011/02/mcgoohan-in-his-own-words-noone-ever.html
Hello Moor,
DeleteYou seem to have chip on your shoulder about "The Prisoner Cult," but I assure you that any influence it may have had upon me has been well and truly shaken off. Of course 'the Prisoner' was McGoohan's from the very begining. What I meant is this, that McGoohan had fingers in every aspect of the series, perhaps he had to, to make the series what it is. But my point is, perhaps McGoohan might have fared better if he did not exercise his control over the production so much has he obviously did, and by trusting, and allowing people to do their own job, he may not have burned himself out the way he obviously had by the end.
Yes, McGoohan was responsible for the production, to see it completed on time, and he did place his trust in many of the production crew, all I'm trying to say is those people with whom McGoohan worked were professionals, perhaps some of them could not see what McGoohan was trying to do, or have his drive and ambition. But if only McGoohan put more trust in members of the production crew, and simply let them do their jobs, the pressure he was under may have been a little less. He was doing too much. As Executive Producer, McGoohan was,solely responsible for the production. Part of his job is to make sure people are doing the jobs they are supposed to be doing, not sack them and then do their jobs as well, that's all I meant.
Yes, McGoohan could have stopped the production at any time, and at the end of 'The Chimes of Big Ben,' the 13th episode in the production order would have been an interesting place to do so. But I'm sure Lew Grade would have had something to say about that, especially when one considers the original number of episodes Lew Grade wanted so that he could sell it to the American Television Companies.
Regards
David
BCNU
Thanks for your patience with my chippiness; it is your blog after all... :-)
ReplyDeleteMcGoohan was certainly committed to 17 episodes, because he'd agreed to do at least that in order to make the sale to CBS; but I doubt Grade was too bothered how it was concluded or not concluded. Grade's money from CBS was safe in the bank long before, as CBS were not paying on results, but by contract. Of course, if McGoohan had failed to create 17 episodes then that contract might have been considered breached. I'm sure therefore that McGoohan was as motivated to make sure he did not let Grade down. It's a supreme irony that due to the assassination of Bobby Kennedy, CBS only ended up showing 16 epsidoes in the end anyway... :-D
Though McGoohan said he had worn himself out, by the look of many of the candid production stills from the set of Fall Out, he was evidently still full of enthusiasm and energy too. His Western, by all acounts, became the most expensive episode to produce, and the longest to make. Given that this was one of the last three or so episodes to be made, it seems that money was NOT running out, and that McGoohan seemed happy he had plenty of time, in complete contradiction to most fan-based accounts of the production process. There is the question of whether or not McGoohan used his fee from Ice Station Zebra to add finance. I for one would really love to know if he did so, or not.
I think McGoohan did trust and rely on his regular crew, Williams, Tomblin and Stafford especially, a lot. The staff he seemed most to lose patience with, were the episode directors. It's a shame maybe, that Don Chaffey was not interested enough to have been willing to direct more than the just the first half dozen or so. I think that would have relieved a huge amount of the pressure McGoohan came to apply to himself in the end, but I'm not convinced it would have altered all that much about the nature of the series, in the end.
Moor
Hello Moor,
DeleteOh we've all got a chip on our shoulders about something or other, at the moment I've got one about publishers!
Regarding the funding of the last four episodes of 'the Prisoner,' Patrick McGoohan left the production to go and work on 'Ice Station Zebra' because as it states in Ian Rakoff's book 'Inside the Prisoner,' McGoohan states and I quote;
"It's a matter of financing the last four episodes to get them made the way I want them to be. Otherwise I could have it taken out of my hands. I can't get out of going if I want to save the series."
I don't think McGoohan could have made it plainer than that, do you? and if it was not a question of money, why otherwise do you think Patrick McGoohan would suddenly decide to leave the production of 'the Prisoner' to go and work on a film in America? David Tomlin and Ian Rakoff were amazed that McGoohan was leaving the production at that time, before he told them the reason.
Oh yes there were certain members of the crew McGoohan trusted, of course there were. But McGoohan involved himself in every little detail, and it's that which caused himself to burn out, which he was. He was a chain smoker, he drank too much, he hardly slept, I mean McGoohan and Frank Maher were once playing squash together in the early hours before going to work, it was bloody rediculous thinking back. Up all night, then going straight into work, must have had effect on McGoohan. And in the end he went to stay with family in Switzerland, and according to legend, not fan cult legend, I understand that McGoohan spent time in a Clinic there to recover from a breakdown.
It is my personal opinion that 'the Prisoner' broke McGoohan more than it made him. Oh yes, we all rmemeber McGoohan for 'the Prisoner' and for years and decades after, all anyone wanted to talk to McGoohan about was 'the Prisoner.' Because of 'Danger Man' Patrick McGoohan had become a household name, sometimes I think for him 'the Prisoner' may have become a curse. That is but a personal opinion.
Kind regards
David
Be seeing you