It is strange is it not, that even the most close to the Prisoner, such as his ex-coleagues, the Colonel, Fotheringay for example, even his finacee, Janet Portland, fails to use the Prisoners name when they are reunited in the episode Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling. I suppose the idea of not using the Prisoner's name means that he could be anyone. Had the Prisoner's name been used, there would not have been the question of the man's identity, and the mystery of the character who we know only as No.6, would have dissipated the mystery.
So why didn't they use the Prisoner's name? Well it was a question of copyright. Patrick McGoohan always denied that the Prisoner is the former M9 agent John Drake of Danger Man. This because had the name John Drake been ueed in the Prisoner, copyright payments would them have had to have been paid to Ralph Smart, creator of the Danger Man. Co-writer and creator of the Prisoner George Markstein was convinced that the Prisoner is John Drake, an agent who had resigned, as Patrick McGoohan had resigned from the role of John Drake Danger Man. But having written that, surely Janet Portland could have used his Christain name John, as could have both the Colonel and Fotheringay, they could have got away with that much......surely.
Be seeing you
It would seem odd that if Patrick McGoohan was seeking to avoid issues about copyright to Ralph Smart, that he would have then made the very first person Number Six meets in the village be played by Ralph's sister, Patsy.
ReplyDeleteBesides this, McGoohan wouldn't have had to pay anyone, Lew Grade would have had that job, and Ralph Smart was an employee of Lew Grade. This "Royalties" aspect of the story is fan bullshit.
Research in the American press shows that McG had commented as early as May of 1966 that The Prisoner would get him away from roles "as an agent". In July 1966 McGoohan is quoted as "John Drake is gone.." in an interview about The Prisoner.
ReplyDeleteSo long before production began the character of No.6 was clearly not considered to be John Drake.
Well now, there's a can of worms opened up!
ReplyDeleteI've delved into my extensive 'Prisoner' archive, and have wathed an interview with Bernard Williams, who was the Production Manager on 'the Prisoner,' Bernard was also partners with McGoohan and David Tomblin for about seven years, although not a partner in 'Everyman Films'. I have also read through the transcript of the interview, and this is what Bernard Williams had to say when asked "When you went into the Prisoner from Danger man, were you given the impression that this person that had been taken away to the village, and given the number Six, was John Drake?
Bernard Williams; "Well, I guess one would associate it....We certainly didn't want to imply that. One obvious reason is that Danger Man was created by Ralph Smart - so he would have had a creative say in the Prisoner if we'd extended John Drake. Also we would have been into lawsuits, for probably stealing the character.
So I think we avoided that whole issue because we just wanted to be independent of Ralph Smart, who was the creator/producer of secret Agent."
More than that, Script Editor for the Prisoner George Markstien is on record, and was interviewed for the Channel 4 documetary Six Into One: The Prisoner File, as saying that there was never any doubt as to who the Prisoner was, of course he was Danger Man's John Drake, who else could he have been? Also camerman Jack Lowen also had the understanding that the Prisoner is John Drake. Dispite Patrick McGoohan claiming ardently that the character of the Prisoner is not John Drake.
The documented evidence for the Prisoner's identity of John Drake. It's up to the fan to choose whether or not to believe it.
Be seeing you.
The background to the *royalties* angle is well-documented in many Prisonerish writings. The interpretation that *royalties* were a prime motivator is tenuous at best, and downright slanderous at worst. Nobody has ever even pinpointed factually whether Smart's agreements with ITC gave him any such copyright power at all. Surely it should be at least proved that some deceit is necessary before such none sense is published?
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Patsy Smart was Ralph's sister was ironically unknown to fan history until I stumbled upon the fact in web-conversation with someone who knew the Smart family, a couple of years ago. This salient fact was never taken into account by any of the Prisoner conspiracy theories. Patrick McGoohan would clearly have known who Patsy was the sister of.
To take Bernie Williams account of the issue being *sensitive*. Well, if McGoohan was privy to this notion, why on earth would he have had Patsy mixing with the crew in Portmeirion in that first location filming? Why would he compound this by making Ralph Smart's sister - as the waitress - the very first person Number Six has any dialogue with?
It would make no sense at all. Whatever has been babbled since, this is proof positive that McGoohan had no such sensitivity about his purloining Drake on the sly. His statements about Drake in all the prisoner pre-publicity are demonstrably sincere.
Add this to the fact that McGoohan blatantly used his John Drake stills from his previous role: why would he have done this if he felt there was "sensitivity"? It would have been a red rag to a bull, never mind a smart man. There is not the slightest logic to this downright silly "theory".
Fans can believe the moon is made of green cheese if they want, but it proves only that they are ignorant of the facts.
"John Drake of 'Secret Agent' is gone." Patrick McGoohan July 26, 1966 (concerning The Prisoner)
ReplyDeleteIt would seem that can of worms never got opened if Mr. McGoohan, as the creator of the program called The Prisoner, declared that the character of John Drake was not 'The Prisoner' known as No.6 even before the show was in production.
The background to the *royalties* angle is well-documented in many Prisonerish writings. The interpretation that *royalties* were a prime motivator is tenuous at best, and downright slanderous at worst. Nobody has ever even pinpointed factually whether Smart's agreements with ITC gave him any such copyright power at all. Surely it should be at least proved that some deceit is necessary before such none sense is published?
ReplyDeleteThe fact that Patsy Smart was Ralph's sister was ironically unknown to fan history until I stumbled upon the fact in web-conversation with someone who knew the Smart family, a couple of years ago. This salient fact was never taken into account by any of the Prisoner conspiracy theories. Patrick McGoohan would clearly have known who Patsy was the sister of.
To take Bernie Williams account of the issue being *sensitive*. Well, if McGoohan was privy to this notion, why on earth would he have had Patsy mixing with the crew in Portmeirion in that first location filming? Why would he compound this by making Ralph Smart's sister - as the waitress - the very first person Number Six has any dialogue with?
It would make no sense at all. Whatever has been babbled since, this is proof positive that McGoohan had no such sensitivity about his purloining Drake on the sly. His statements about Drake in all the prisoner pre-publicity are demonstrably sincere.
Add this to the fact that McGoohan blatantly used his John Drake stills from his previous role: why would he have done this if he felt there was "sensitivity"? It would have been a red rag to a bull, never mind a smart man. There is not the slightest logic to this downright silly "theory".
Fans can believe the moon is made of green cheese if they want, but it proves only that they are ignorant of the facts.
Hello Moor Larkin,
ReplyDeleteWell now, such an important comment, that it was posted twice. I have to say that the comment came to me marked as Spam. However, having de-spamed it here we are.
Clearly I have hit a very emotive subject here without realizing it.
McGoohan was sick of 'Danger Man' and I'm quite sure the last thing he wanted was for people to refer to the Prisoner-No.6 as John Drake. As for No.6, he could be anybody - Mr. Everyman. So really it is up to the individual to make the Prisoner whoever works for them personally, whether it be John Drake or Fred Blogs. To me as a 12 year old, whose boyhood hero had been John Drake, the Prisoner being John Drake seemed the logical progression. But that is my personal opinion.
Both Patrick McGoohan and George Markstein claimed to be the creator of 'the Prisoner,' personally I think it was both of them. McGoohan said the Prisoner wasn't John Drake, Markstein said he was John Drake. George Markstein wanted 'the Prisoner' to be more a straightforward spy-thriller-adventure, while Patrick McGoohan wanted it more enigmatic allegorical. So that's the way McGoohan went, and George Markstein left the production.
As for Patsy Smart, being Ralph Smart's sister {which I did know} I really don't consider being of any significance. Rose Tobias Shaw was the casting Director on 'the Prisoner', and I would hope McGoohan would not be so petty as to do Patsy Smart out of a job just because of who she was, or have the time along with everything else on his plate to go out of his way to specify what bit part actress he wanted to speak the opening words of 'the Prisoner.' However to play Devil's advocate - perhaps Rose Tobias Shaw did!
Just out of interest, who do you think the Prisoner is?
BCNU
Hello mister/miss Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteIt appears that I've hit a raw nerve with some people regarding whether or not the Prisoner is John Drake.
For myself, as a 12 year old boy, it seemed a logical progression. And the belief that John Drake is the Prisoner-No.6 has always stayed with me. I know Patrick McGoohan always denied it being so, and I have given alternative dialogue that contradicts this, which has been ignored. But the Prisoner being John Drake has always worked for me. It's really no skin off my nose whether he is or not. As for Patrick McGoohan, I have tended to take some of what he said about 'the Prisoner' with a pinch of salt. After all McGoohan once said that he didn't know what 'the Prisoner' was about, that he would be pleased if someone could explain it to him!
I ask you, as I asked Moor Larkin, who do you think the Prisoner is, if not John Drake?
"I don't understand why it doesn't lie down and die. Frankly if you understand how it all ends you're a better man than I." George Markstein 1979( concerning The Prisoner)
ReplyDeleteIt would appear that George Markstein had no clue as to what The Prisoner was all about and also wanted it to fade from history. Hardly the comments a 'creator' would make about a work that was commented on as television classic in it's very first broadcast period.
As to who was No.6 was ... well I think he is just what Mr.McGoohan said he was ... an allegorical figure... much like the characters in Waiting For Godot, in which case if you want No.6 to be John Drake he could be... but he clearly as of July 1966 was not intended to be.
"It was all Patrick. George Markstein contributed zero." Bernie Williams (concerning the creation of The Prisoner)
ReplyDeleteI just thought I would add this quote from production manager Bernie Williams as he is quoted above earlier from an interview.
That must be my New York comment above - so good they named it twice..... :-D
ReplyDeleteRe. your response about Rose Tobia-Shaw. Read what she said in 1967: http://www.danger-man.co.uk/docs/magazines/tvtimes/Dec1967/pdf.pdf
"We've had a lot of battles. Pat has very positive ideas about actors and he's very knowledgeable about them....... he's had his way most of the time because, after all, he's the executive producer...... "
You say you knew about Patsy? I can only remark that when I found this intriguing fact out (by pure chance as I was actually interested in Ralph Smart at the time and wasn't even researching McGoohan) that I was astounded by the *coincidence*. I'm obviously very impressionable.
I have never once seen it mentioned in a single book on the subject. Given that they pretty much detail the colour of George Markstein's underpants in some of the wretched tomes, I don't see any evidence that anyone had ever made this connection. I have mentioned it in one or two forums since of course. I can be a chatty man. Plus this particular Blog has been webbed for two years now: http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.com/2009/06/secret-agents-ducks-drakes-smart-people.html
It's free information, like your own here.
Regarding the latest comments from Anonymous, if one is to believe what Bernard Williams had to say about the contribution of George Markstein to 'the Prisoner,' then why not what he has to say regarding the Prisoner and John Drake? I feel this could run and run with no resolution either way. But it's got some debate going.
ReplyDeleteRegarding McGoohan and Markstein, only they know the true story of what happened between them while working on 'the Prisoner.' The fact that Markstein said he didn't know what 'the Prisoner' was all about and wished it would die down, was probably hard feelings on the part of Markstein, because he didn't agree with the direction McGoohan had taken the series. Markstien had co-created 'the Prisoner' with McGoohan, who later took complete credit for it's creation, which must have rankled Markstein.
Your idea of who the Prisoner is, is plausable enough. Some fans had No.6 being a nuclear scientist, because he knew how to launch a rocket. But that would make him a 'Rocketeer,' as nuclear scientists don't actually launch rockets. Others had him as being a high ranking Naval Officer.............. It's all up to the individual in the end.
Be seeing you
Hello Moor Larkin,
ReplyDeleteThe person who told me about Patsy Smart being Ralph Smarts sister, took it to be general knowledge. But I don't know where they heard it originally.
I know that Rose Tobia Shaw had struggles with McGoohan at times regarding casting. I believe there was one they had over Alexis Kanner playing 'the Kid'. It is said that she didn't want him, but McGoohan did. Although I'm no fan of Kanner, he did make an excellent job of the role as the Kid.
BCNU
"Well, 'Who is No.6?" is no mystery - he was a secret agent called Drake who quit" George Markstein UK Channel Four
ReplyDeleteIt would seem that Mr. Markstein's vision of The Prisoner was based on No.6 being John Drake 'secret agent', yet "John Drake of 'Secret Agent' is gone.": Patrick McGoohan July 26, 1966.
It would seem that Mr. Markstein's vision of No.6 as 'a secret agent called Drake who quit' ceased to exist before the cameras began to sole in September of 1966. So what is left is Mr. McGoohan's allegorical No.6.
I always like to think that the allegorical No.6 was a sort of 'gentleman scientist' who The Village kidnapped for his knowledge of psych-warfare.
All the natural skills we No.6 display such as boxing. fencing, marksmanship etc. are really more the skills developed in a classic education. It his intelligent use of these skills that make him an asset and a menace to The Village.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteNow there's a possible identity of the Prisoner-No.6 which I've not come across before. A 'gentleman scientist,' well if it works for you. And yes you're right of course, No,6 would indeed have learned the skills of both boxing and fencing via a classical education, as Patrick McGoohan did himself at Ratcliffe College here in Leicestershire.
Most sincerely, and with Best wishes
David
Hello David
ReplyDeleteThank you for the best wishes.
Once a person can know that there was no way that No.6 was John Drake because Mr. McGoohan had eliminated all possibility of that on July 26, 1966,( before the cameras began to role in September of 1966) there is a whole world of interpretations that open up to not just No.6 identity but to just what 'The Prisoner' itself is all about. That was Mr. McGoohan's genius of making his masterpiece an allegory from it's very first conception ( this is only natural given McGoohan's experience in theater productions such as Moby Dick Rehearsed and other allegorical works).
Given the above I always thought of No.6 as a ' gentleman scientist' Psychiatrist who had resigned from society itself and that The Village was a social experiment to create 'the new man' that was part of Frankenstein or ancient Masonic lore.
The odd thing is that by killing off John Drake to give expression to No.6 Mr. McGoohan gave the world a unique allegorical character the could even be ...John Drake.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
P.S. Happy Birthday Patrick (and No.6)
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteNice to be hearing from you again. And I have to say I found your recent comment has having cogent argument, and makes some good points. And has depth with "The Village and the social experiment to create 'the new man'being that part of Frankenstein or ancient Masonic lore." That's a new one on me, which I find intriguing.
But then you went and used the 'A'word 'Allegorical.' To my mind, Patrick McGoohan never actually came up with 'the Prisoner' being an allegorical series, certainly not from the very beginning. As best to my knowledge Patrick McGoohan only described 'Fall Out' as being allegorical, when he was asked to explain 'Fall Out.' I always saw McGoohan's use of the word Allegorical as being something of a cop-out on McGoohan's part when he was asked to explain the ending to the series. McGoohan said that the public expected a 'Bond' style of ending to the series, well he didn't want to give that, so McGoohan said. And so decribed 'Fall Out' as being allegorical, which means the final episode could be anything. And that's the cop-out McGoohan took in my opinion. I know it would not have been right for him to tell television viewers what 'Fall Out' was all about. But because he called it allegorical, it would appear neither did McGoohan really know what 'Fall Out' was about!
I believe McGoohan was right when he said he didn't want to give 'the Prisoner' a 'Bond' style ending, but in my opinion that's just what McGoohan did do! The villain is No.1. There's the installation built by some nameless , unknown organisation. The villian No.1 is confronted by the hero, followed by a violent fire-fight, during which all the armed guards are killed. A rocket is launched, and in that the evil villain-No.1 is dispenced with, and amid all the confusion, the hero, No.6, escapes.
Also I'm not so sure that 'Fall Out' is the final episode, but the first, and that it's the village the Prisoner resigns from back in London at the outset of 'Arrival.' After all the ending of 'Fall Out' is the beginning of 'Arrival!'
Regards
David
BCNU
While watching the concluding episode of "The Prisoner" it seemed to me to have touches of allegory perhaps- pilgrim in today's world struggling to remain an individual. ( Fan Letter from 1968)
ReplyDeleteGiven the above humble fan letter, Mr. Stuart Burge, director of Sergeant Musgraves Dance 1961 starring Patrick McGoohan seeing the play as an allegory, Mr.McGoohan's performance in Moby Dick Rehearsed , his performance in the teleplay 'The Prisoner'(1963) (described in the press of the day as an allegory), given all this I think the idea that Mr McGoohan thought of his own creation of 'The Prisoner' as an allegory is very logical.
If you compare the episode Once Upon A Time to it's obvious inspirational source of the teleplay 'The Prisoner'(1963),which starred Mr. McGoohan, you can see that this early episode in both writing ( by Mr. McGoohan) and production order is just as allegorical in nature as Fall Out ( or any other episode in the series).
The concept of 'The Prisoner' as an allegory explains every feature of what Mr. McGoohan wanted 'The Prisoner' to be as a story that would cause questions and allow for multiple interpretations. This is consistent with his pre-production, during production and many post production description's of 'The Prisoner'.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello David
ReplyDeleteI am glad you are enjoying my suggestions as to the identity of No.6.
All The Best
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI have never seen 'Sergeant Musgraves Dance' or Partick McGoohan in 'Moby Dick,' or the 1963 teleplay 'The Prisoner' {although I have seen the film version}. In fact I've never really been a fan of Patrick McGoohan, more simply a fan of 'Danger Man' and 'the Prisoner.' Oh I enjoy some of McGoohan's early films, 'Hell Divers,'All Night Long' for examples, along with his role in the 'Columbo' episode 'Identity Crisis.'
I did once attend a day screening of some of Patrick McGoohan's work, during which 'Brand,' was screened, I fell asleep during 'Brand'! And when I fell asleep McGoohan was ranting on about something or other, and when I woke up he was still ranting on, it was as though I'd woken up and had missed nothing! But that is no reflection upon Patrick McGoohan's acting ability, just that I find Ibsen's plays too damned dark and depressing for my taste.
I have met with people who have thought the word 'Allegorical' to be the most useful word to use when decribing anything to do with 'the Prisoner,' and that is no reflection upon your good self I assure you. But I have found the use of the word allegorical most disatisfying, too amorphous, with no defined structure to it. I much prefer to use reasoned logic when it comes to understanding 'the Prisoner.' Looking at the series as though it were a reality. So I have to ask you, if 'the Prisoner' is to be seen as an allegory, what is it an allegory of? If it is not all allegorical, how do we discern that which is allegorical, and that which is not?
Regards
David
Be seeing you
A small taste of Sgt Musgrave is here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.flickr.com/photos/11417707@N04/4154632289/
@ I much prefer to use reasoned logic when it comes to understanding 'the Prisoner.' Looking at the series as though it were a reality. So I have to ask you, if 'the Prisoner' is to be seen as an allegory, what is it an allegory of? @
I think you need to understand what an allegory is. It's a word that tends to be bandied about a little. The idea is that you make a story about one reality that is actually hinting about another reality. If you are familiar with "The Crucible" by Arthur Miller: the play never sets foot outside the Salem witch trials of the 1600's. However it was recognised at the time it was written in the 1950's, as being an allegory of 1950's McCarthyism in the USA.
Like you, I also recognise the "James Bond Blowing Everything Up" reality of Fall-Out. I have no idea why some people talk about it being baffling. It has many deepnesses about it but it is perfectly functional as a piece of mildly surreal, but still cogent Action-TV. The best forms of art operate on these dual levels - entertaining and thoughtful.
Compare "Man in a Suitcase" to "The Prisoner". They were made by many of the same peer group. The former is an empty shell really. It has simple stories, simply told and is perfectly adequate as a piece of Action-TV... but that is all it is. It has nothing to say about Life and the Human Condition. It just is what it is.
So far as the *allegory*of The Prisoner. It is an allegory of many things. That is why some people *see* so many different things going on. The waking-up of The Prisoner in Arrival could be the moment of birth... the infant is fully-grown but he enters a world he never asked to join, doesn't recognise and he has no idea what purpose he is there for. But the seires is not then about his growing-up into society (although you could probably pursue that notion if you wanted to), it moves on into other things.
I mention another allegory in my blog about "Free For All"
http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.com/2010/12/mcgoohan-introduces-himself-to-his-fans.html
"The scene with the reporters is often reviewed as the media interpreting politicians but in reality McGoohan was evidently poking out his allegorical tongue at the celebrity media he was so familiar with by 1966 because of his world-wide fame as John Drake; he commented in interviews that what he said to journalists was rarely reproduced with the full meaning he intended."
Hello Moor Larkin,
ReplyDeleteThank you for your school masterly explanation of what an allegory is, but I am as it happens, fully aware of what one is. Long ago I became disatisfied with the term allegory, and locked it away in a box which I keep within the deep recesses of my mind!
I can fully appreciate that certain films can be taken on more than one level, as with the Salem witch trials you instanced, and much more recently with films like 'Avatar.'
My question is, why can we not take what we see on the screen, of 'the Prisoner' at face value? why does it have to represent something completely different? Because in allegorical terms, it would be that 'the Prisoner' is anything but! McGoohan once said "It means what it is," not make it into something it's not!
I have been reading some of Patrick McGoohan's early comments about 'the Prisoner,' comments which he said soon after it's premier screening. And not once did he mention the word Allegory. Permit me to use a few of McGoohan's own words "The stories are all about one man's unflinching battle for survival as an individual in a macabre world where every move is watched by electronic eyes, where all his neighbours are suspect." "The function of any art is to speak ahead of the time, to herald the warnings that are not obvious but which are there in the atmosphere. I hope I'm giving some kind of warning."
They are two excerpts from a transcript of an interview with Patrick McGoohan, and define what the series is all about. A man taken out of his normal surroundings, and placed in an alien environment, and his fight to mainntain his individuality against the system. You suggest that when the Prisoner wakes up in what appears to be his own home, but is in actual fact in the village, that the Prisoner could be being born. But he's still the same man he was before his abduction.
Someone once years ago, wrote of the moment during the opening sequence to 'the Prisoner,' than when we see him going through a pair of doors marked 'Way Out' that the Prisoner was demonstrating his rebellious nature by entering a building via the 'Way Out.' But he's not, the Prisoner has parked his Lotus 7 in an undeground car park, and is simply leaving said undergound car park via the way out. Okay, it's one person's interpretation of what the Prisoner is doing, but does that make it right when faced with what the Prisoner is actually doing? My point is, the Prisoner has been overcome with nerve gas in his own home, and then wakes up wondering what's happened to him. Of course the Prisoner doesn't recognise where he is, for it is an alien environmrnt to him. The familar sight of skyscrapers, seen out of his window, have been replaced by an Italianate village!
In my opinion, and I am including myself in this, 'the Prisoner' is far better viewed through the eyes of a child. Because it is we as adults who make 'the Prisoner' more complicated than it actually is.
McGoohan once said "I wanted people to ask questions, to argue, to think. I like to provoke argument at all times. I'm provoking it now....." Yes, and from the grave it would seem!
Kind regards
David
BCNU
@ "The function of any art is to speak ahead of the time, to herald the warnings that are not obvious but which are there in the atmosphere. I hope I'm giving some kind of warning." @
ReplyDeleteI'll settle for that personally. The important thing to be clear about is that McGoohan was not commissioning a simple Action-TV show. He wanted to do something that would be *artistic* as well as popular. If all he had wanted, was to do a John Drake sequel, then he wouldn't have *resigned* in the first place.
It's quite piquant in the circumstances, that Markstein viewed the show was an allegory for McGoohan and his career choices.... :-D
ANSWERS TO 'PRISONER'
ReplyDeleteThe Baltimore Sun - May 25, 1969
The Prisoner produced by Patrick McGoohan and telecast a year ago on CBS TV was a rare combination of allegory and adventure ...through the medium of the producers ITC sent out a statement ... ( Quotes from an ITC (1968) press release)
Mr. McGoohan once referred to The Prisoner as a 'fable' about concerns of 'progress' over the needs of the 'individual'
Progress! Progress! Progress!
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteYour recent comment it fair enough. Indeed Patrick McGoohan was, with 'the Prisoner' warning of the speed of progress man was making at that time. And with the use of the Penny Farthing as the emblem for the village, tried to show that it was time to slow down, for man to consolidate the progress he has made. I don't think anyone heeded McGoohan's warning.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello Moor Larkin,
ReplyDeleteWith 'the Prisoner' Patrick McGoohan wanted to make something special, and he managed to do that alright. And if John Drake is Not the Prisoner, then Patrick McGoohan must be, after all it was McGoohan himself who resigned from the role of John Drake as 'Danger Man.' Patrick McGoohan wanted to end his role as John Drake, that's true, but then look where he ended up.........in the village. And when questioned by No.2 "Why did you resign?" The Prisoner could have replied "Because I became disillusioned with 'Danger Man!" But there, I'm letting my imagination start to run away, mixing fact and fiction, and one should never do that..........
Regards
David
BCNU
Rick Du Brow 1969
ReplyDeleteThe Channel Swim: "The Prisoner," an allegorical hour series with Patrick McGoohan as a kidnapped man unable to escape from a mysterious village, returns for its second season on CBS-TV May 29 ( quote from Rick Dubrow American television critic)
************
According to its report, President Johnson pressured the CIA to become involved in combating a rising incidence of domestic unrest during the summer of 1967. On Aug. 15, 1967, Thomas Karamessines, then in charge of the agency's covert activities, ordered the chief of the counterintelligence staff, at that time, James J. Angleton, to establish an operation to keep track. In addition to field activities, however, CHAOS had become the repository for vast amounts of data on dissident activities. At its height, the report said, it employed some 52 professional intelligence officers, as well as the 30 operatives and maintained detailed "personality files" on 13,000 persons, of whom 7,200 were American citizens. It had a "computer index" of 300,000 names and would draw upon the main CIA compubank of 7 million names. ( quote from a news item about U.S.Senate investigation of the CIA 1970's)
****************
I was always always under the impression the Mr. McGoohan had chosen the classic 'image' of the 'espionage story' as the narrative device for his allegory to tell the story of the fictional No.6 ( in the equally fictional Village) in order to tell a fable as to how 'progress' was warping the moral values of the current and future society.
Television that could monitor the individual and be used as a tool to bring about conformity is just one example (The General).
Fall Out is interesting in that it's climax could be just as easily be a Jules Verne (20,000 Leagues Beneath The Sea), Sci-fi (Forbidden Planet) or Zane Grey western style climax rather than the often said James Bond ending or one of my own favorites the 7th Circle of Hell ... that I think is the genius of Mr. McGoohan's allegory, it can be his forum for 1000 interpretations ... including a John Drake adventure if one is so inclined.
The impact of The Prisoner is still being measured but one observation is that, in the 1970's, a number of news accounts related the allegorical The Prisoner as a warning of the types of activities the American CIA abused (see above)during US Senate investigations which lead to number of safeguards still in place today.
Scincerely
Mr. Aonymous
'Take the locks off your mind and put them on the doors' (Old Buddhist saying)
Hi Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to 'the Prisoner,' Patrick McGoohan also said "People disappear into camps like this {meaning the village}. It's not just imagination - it's fact. These places are actual physical map references. At this moment individuals are being drained of their personalities and being brainwashed into slaves. The inquisition of the mind by psychiatrics is far worse that the assault on the body by torturers."
Well it was at the time of the Cold war. The Vietnam War was raging, people being put into concentration camps in Cambodia, used as slave labour. Not to mention the Gulags in Siberia.
I do see allegory in 'the Prisoner,' For example 'A Change of Mind,' in the way citizens in the village are easily denounced as being Unmutual, can be an allegory for the McCarthy Communist witch-hunts in America during the 1950's.
Also 'the Prisoner' has been discribed as being 'Kafkaesque,' and 'Orwellian.' So you have to take your pick, and choose the one that best suits you.
Indeed, 1,000 fans of 'the Prisoner' can give their own ideas on what 'the Prisoner' is, 1,000 ideas and theories, and each one would be right.
In the past there have been fans who have bandied the word allegorical about, without having the faintest idea of what they are talking about, I do not include your good self in that. Simply seeing to be using the word allegorical, is that they need not expand on that, that 'the Prisoner' is allegorical and so means anything you like it to mean. And I, personally, was dissatified with that.
I spent four and a half years researching both 'the Prisoner' and all related material. I opened my mind, and have made many discoveries about 'the Prisoner,' many never before thought of. And that's because I kept away from the allegorical side to 'the Prisoner'. I could tell you the exact origins of the village salute when used in conjunction with the phrase "Be seeing you." Oh yes, that was used long, long, long before McGoohan employed it in 'the Prisoner.' Fans of the series have always akined it to the Christain sign of the fish, but it's got absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with that. I learned of this origin from a man, who had not even heard of 'the Prisoner,' let alone having seen it! But he knew exactly what I was talking about when I gave him the salute, and bid him "Be seeing you." Now, discovering that sort of thing about 'the Prisoner,' knocks the allegorical into a cocked hat, for me that is!
Be seeing you
And have a good weekend.
David.
TV Guide
ReplyDeleteTHE PRISONER (2), 8 p.m. — Return premiere. Patrick McGoohan is back in repeats of the series he created, an allegory of man in a dehumanized world. (1969)
The Sun (1837-1985) - Baltimore, Md.
Author: Richard Shull
Date: Apr 13, 1975
McGoohan was a British spy who attempted to retire He was kidnapped and placed in the village. Question was whether the British spooks had put him there because he knew too much to be allowed loose or whether he was prisoner of some alien power. The story paralleled some of the creepy activities now being revealed in the Washington hearings on the CIA spooks.
'There really are such places, all very secret, of course, where exactly that sort of thing goes on. "I know of one in the British Isles, another in Germany, and one here in the United States. They provided me with just the sort of dramatic gimmick I needed to say something that very much needs saying." (Patrick McGoohan 1969)
Hello David
I am certain that your almost half a decade journey of discovery was a fascinating one.
There is no doubt in my mind that there is a great deal that is factual in The Prisoner and that Mr. McGoohan knew of such places as The Village (see above).In fact using interviews by Mr. Lowen. Mr. Williams and Mr. McGoohan himself I have been able to track down both the written source materials for the origins of The Prisoner and the locations of virtually all of the 'villages' that Mr. McGoohan references in the quote above (none of these 'villages' were in Scotland but that is another story).
In order to understand The Prisoner one must have an understanding of it's sole creator, one Mr. McGoohan and his theatrical background in allegorical productions,as an example 'Moby Dick Rehearsed'.
Moby Dick was written with an astounding amount of historical detail including an episode at sea where a whale called Mocha Dick sank a whaling ship by ramming it, yet no one doubts that the story of Moby Dick itself is pure allegory. Thus Mr. McGoohan has a similar amount of historical details from various knowable source materials and yet not compromise the allegorical nature of The Prisoner as he first conceived it, as it is still a work of fiction.
I think that any future works or books with out those sources would be sadly incomplete and rather quickly rendered obsolete, IMHO.
The wonderful thing about accepting the historical fact that Mr. McGoohan did not conceive of his new character No.6 as being John Drake and that The Village and all it's inhabitants were purely allegorical, cast in the image of the popular 'espionage story', is that if you want the story of No.6 to be that of John Drake you are free to do so.
It is not only reasonable to see the allegorical nature of The Prisoner, it allows you to use your logic to tease out the historical basis of the series while not compromising how it may still cast light on contemporary events.An example of this is that in Japan the first 'historical' plays were Kabuki (seen in Koroshi).
The Japanese people consider the Kabuki plays to be allegorical in nature, thus every year plays are chosen that reflect the current events unfolding in Japan. Much like we use Shakespear in the West. Even though the 'historical' basis of the play is unaltered the allegorical nature of the plays allow the 'ancestors' to speak to contemporary audiences on current issues.
By 1975 one Robert Schull ( see quote above) was able to take Mr. McGoohan's allegorical cautionary tale quite to heart and see the relevance to the CIA U.S.Senate investigations that lead to the current safeguards that curb that institutions abuses.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteWell I think that's just about squeezed everything out of the Allegorical, and I thank you for it.
I have never so much as met Patrick McGoohan, so I couldn't possibly claim to understand him. Although my wife and I have been researching his life while he lived here in Loughborough, during World War II, and afterwards. I have talked with people who were his personal friends in his youth. From them I have gained some insights which puts flesh on bones so to speak, which I would never have gained from any written word of him, or through interview.
As for being the sole creator of 'the Prisoner,' well he certainly had the original idea. But what must not be forgotten is, it was George Markstein and director David Tomblin who together co-wrote 'Arrival.' That there are a number of other script writers who put their mark on 'the Prisoner.' Because any writer who was asked to produce a script for an episode of 'the Prisoner,' was simply given the basic facts about the series. No scriptwriter knew what had gone before the episode he was writing. So their contribution to 'the Prisoner,' must not be forgotten, and was just as important as McGoohan's, because without them, 'the Prisoner' would not be the series it is.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteThe original Tomblin/Markstein script of The Arrival is a remarkable re-working of two scripts from the Danger Man series. It is Mr. McGoohan's re-write of Arrival that gives it's originality. One might go so far as to say that the first truly original The Prisoner script that set the tone for the series was Free For All written at virtually the same time as Arrival by Mr. McGoohan.
I note your knowledge of use of The Village "salute". Among certain Masonic orders there is such a "gesture' or 'salute' similar to the giving of the "OK" sign. The gesture is called the 'vesica piscis' gesture followed often by the phrase "I will see you.", a reference to the 'resurrection' ritual of the Masons that an 'initiate' endures. Some Architects use the gesture also.
The 'vesica piscis'is a geometric shape formed by two intersecting circles that forms the shape of a human eye and is considered to be the space between Heaven and Earth. Perhaps the 'vesica piscis'is the joining of the two wheels of the 'penny farthing' bicycle as seen in the 'alt version' of Chimes of Big Ben. Certainly The Village is somewhere in a limbo between 'Heaven and Earth'.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteNow you have me somewhat intrigued by your latest comment. In all my years of appreciation for 'the Prisoner,' having heard all the stories, rumours, gossip about the series from cast and crew who worked on the series, I have not heard about 'Arrival' being a re-working of two 'Danger Man'scripts, which in turn were re-written by Patrick McGoohan. Where do you get your information? I would be interested to know what 'Danger Man' scripts were used for 'Arrival,' and who originally wrote those two scripts? Persumabley they were unused scripts. And if that is the case, why is it then, that 'Arrival' is credited to George Markstein and David Tomblin if McGoohan wrote it? As I understand it, McGoohan told David Tomblin his idea of 'the Prisoner,' and told Tomblin to go away and write the script for 'Arrival.'
I have not before come across the use of a gesture or salute used within Masonic Masonry, I shall have to research that, as I find it most interesting, and well worth making note of. But I assure you, that the Masonic gesture or salute is not the same as the origin I was informed about. I cannot reveal my understanding of the village salute or greeting, because that would put it in the public domain, and so must remain secret until I can get my manuscript about 'the Prisoner' published.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteMr. McGoohan stated that he re-wrote The Arrival in the Troyer interview.
Another version of The Village 'salute' can be seen in the 'Vitarka Mudra', often seen in Buddhist icons.
The Mudra is a sign or gesture associated with Teaching, Giving Instruction and Reason. It is a practice of a path called 'The Seeing Path'.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteAfter reading your recent comment I found myself looking out my copy of the transcript of the Troyer interview with Patrick McGoohan carried out in 1976-1977, and read the relevant section. In the interview McGoohan claimed to have written 5 scripts, when in fact it's 3, and he went on to say in the interview "The first one I re-wrote. It came out.....not the way I wanted." McGoohan is talking about the first script he wrote, being 'Free For All, which he wrote under the name of Paddy Fitz. It is the script for 'Free For All' which he re-wrote. Never once did McGoohan say he re-wrote 'Arrival.' But I can see how any misunderstanding might arise. It's how one interprets McGoohan saying "The first one I re-wrote." Meaning the first script he wrote, not the first episode of the series.
Also, as previously mentioned, McGoohan, claimed in the Troyer interview that he wrote 5 episodes, Free for all, then the last one, the penultimate one, another one, and then there was another one, he couldn't remember the name of it offhand, because it was a long time ago. Well McGoohan is credited with only having written 3 episodes, all the others have credited scriptwriters. Time does appear to play tricks on the mind. Well it did on McGoohan's it seems!
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteDavid Tomblin:
When we wrote the first episode, Patrick got very excited about it and then began to add touches he began to stylise it and it took on quite a different look. He was going sort of "over there" and I was trying to keep it "over here" because my sort of experience was heavily actionised, so between the two forces plus Jack's visuals the
thing ended up the way it ended up. (Concerning the writing of The Arrival)
Sincerely
Mr.Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteQuite so. And I'm sure McGoohan got involved with every script of the series in some shape or form. Take 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling,' it was Scriptwrtier Vincent Tilsley who wrote the script for the episode, which wasn't perfect by any means. But then David Tomblin re-wrote the script, and made a real hash of it. 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling' turned out far worse for having had the script rewritten. Then McGoohan returned from America after working on 'Ice Station Zebra,' took one look at the production of 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling,' and changed it again, and further, made it worse so that the finished episode bears little resembalnce to the original script.
Vincent Tilsley said that they changed a bad script into an incomprehensible episode!
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteAnd then there were five. Yoy have noted above that it was the McGoohan/Tomblin team that re-wrote Do Not Forsake Me where in Mr. Mcgoohan goes uncredited. It is the same case with The Arrival and that is why Mr. McGoohan said "The first one I re-wrote. It came out.....not the way I wanted." Mr. McGoohan was refering to The Arrival not Free For All.
Mr. McGoohan was having an 'in joke' with the students in the audience when he said 'he couldn't remember' .. an element of Do Not Fosrake Me is the loss of memory induced by The Village.
Mr. McGoohan wrote three scripts and re-wrote two others to the effect of five all total.
Do Not Foresake Me was considered an inportent episode in the U.S. broadcast order as it re-launched public awareness of the series, in the U.S. TV Guide.
TV Guide CLOSE UP: Do Not Forsake Me August 3 1968
Put yourself in The Prisoner's shoes. You wake up, look in the mirror and discover that the face and the body you see are not your own. You learn that you have been missing for a year- and you have no idea where you have been.
Which identity would you believe in? The person your mind remembers- or the stranger you see in the mirror? Even if you could be sure who you were, how could you convince anyone else?
You might if you were The Prisoner- try to search out the one man who could engineer a brain transplant.
I note in earlier posts your need of, for the moment, private scholarship until publication of your work. That I think is something that Mr. McGoohan would have appreciated . Writers often found themselves unable to exchange correspondence, or even acknowledge other writer's work because it would place them in a vulnerable position when it came time to publish or act on their own original works. Mr. McGoohan came from from a generation of young actors breaking with the studio publicity system and felt people in public life should also have a right to privacy. Sometimes this was misunderstood as aloofness. One reporter observed that Mr. McGoohan was just simply shy.
I am glad you are curious about the two Danger Man scripts and a few other source materials drawn on in the authorship of The Arrival. It was Andrew Pixley who made the observation that two stories were used to create The Arrival.I haven't noticed many people who note that curious circumstance.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteAh, now you are putting words in my mouth. I said it was David Tomblin who re-wrote the script for 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling,' I didn't say Patrick McGoohan and his team re-wrote it. McGoohan was not involved with the immediate re-write because he was out of the country at the time, in America working on 'Ice Station Zebra.' What I failed to make note of in my previous comment, was that it was in the Cutting Room that McGoohan made the changes to 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling.' The episode had been produced while McGoohan was away, with the addition of the final scene after his return. I think McGoohan was a bit pissed off to think that they could produce an episode of 'the Prisoner' without him, and that possibly drove him to see faults in the episode, and reacted accordingly in the Cutting Room. Because McGoohan had several well shot scenes taken out of the episode. One was of a high quality aerial shot of the dancing as Janet Portland's birthday party. The shot was excellent, and added much to the scene. But McGoohan hated it, and had it cut from the finished episode!
Up until 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling' George Markstein was Script Editor on 'the Prisoner.' Markstein didn't like the direction McGoohan was taking the series, so just before 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling' George left the production.
Patrick McGoohan - shy, no chance! Not when you think how he treated some people. On the set of 'the Prisoner' McGoohan was nothing but a bully! Oh he could be nice to some people, and then others he treated like dirt! As a fan of both 'Danger Man, and 'the Prisoner' I never had the desire to meet Patrick McGoohan, as I don't think he was a very nice man to have known.
As for the so called 'in-joke' regarding his not being able to remember the other scripts he was supposed to have re-written. Well in one interview, I think it was for the infamous 'L.A Tape,' but don't quote me on that, McGoohan when asked if he could remember his work on 'the Prisoner,' McGoohan replied of course he could. He could remember every frame, every shot he took!!!! I've always taken some things of what McGoohan said about 'the Prisoner' with a pinch or two of salt.
I mean to say, during the interview of the infamous L.A.Tape McGoohan's on a Californian beach - he stoops to pick up a wire coat hanger out of the sand, and with an expression on his face that says something like "Now you know what it's all about," as he shows the wire coat hanger to the camera. Paddy boy was having laugh!
Finally - 'Arrival' was edited in places, not re-written, and many scenes were deleted from the script. I think if anyone edited 'Arrival,' it would have been the co-author George Markstein, as he was the Script Editor.
In the L.A Tape McGoohan said of 'Arrival' that he asked the two writers, Markstein and Tomblin, if they would mind if he could put in a couple of things that they could throw out if they didn't like. And the ideas went a little further in some places, politics for instance, and wanted included "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, de-briefed, or numbered."
It's all a little hair-splitting stuff this. The only ones in the know, who could say one way or the other for sure, are long since departed.
Regards
David.
BCNU
FRIDAY, AUGUST 4, 1967.
ReplyDeleteMcGoohan is in the middle of his first Hollywood picture. Ice Station Zebra.... ...he has been working on The Prisoner, a shocking and refreshingly new type of 60- minute thriller in which he stars directs—and much of which he has written.
Meanwhile, he lives in a rented Beverly Hills house writes the final three Prisoner" episodes .. ( Quote from the American press)
Hello David
In an interview Mr. Tilsley attributes the re-write of 'Face Unknown/Do Not Foresake Me to Mr. Tomblin and Mr. McGoohan ... there is an interview with the camera man who spoke of Mr. McGoohan's edit on the film.
Mr. Tomblin spoke of Mr. McGoohan as a 'taskmaster' who worked at a furious pace,16 hours a day, yet people who knew Mr. McGoohan personally and worked with him accepted this part of his character and did not hold it against him.
There are numerous accounts of Mr. McGoohan's remarkable memory ( he gives an account of his father sharing the same quality). In fact in 1974 in the American press Mr. McGoohan gives an account of the development of The Prisoner that is identical to the one given in the Troyer interview ( confirmed in Sir Lew Grade's autobiography).
That Mr. McGoohan re-wrote The Arrival I think is to be found in the way the Butler was recast and only Mr. McGoohan knew the nature of Rover's functions as it is well accepted that Rover in both forms was his innovation.These would all be considered 're-writes' rather than 'edits' by most script standards.
There are still some resources that may tease out the who's who of The Arrival and scripts such as Do Not Forsake Me in the form of a linguistic analysis of Tomblin, McGoohan, Markstein and Tilsley.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI can see that this subject could run and run, also your enthusiastic passion for Patrick McGoohan is quite apparent.
For my part, it's been "Good agricultural stuff," as No.6 would say, but that no satisfactory conclusion within the field of this dicussion can be reached. It's like a fencing match, cut, thrust, parry. Or a game of chess, move and counter move, and I feel a stalemate looming, if it has not loomed already! The most important thing about 'the Prisoner' is, it is what it is, no matter how it was produced.
The reason for the change in Butler for the series, was because McGoohan didn't want to be out played, out acted. The original Butler would have been over six feet tall, well dressed, and well spoken. McGoohan didn't want that, the Butler looking better on screen than him. {or words to that effect} So a change in Butler was arranged in the script, enter Angelo Muscat, to play a mute, dwarf Butler. And the reason why the Butler doesn't speak......because of Angelo Muscat's heavy Maltese accent. Yet in the series, there are one or two moments which give away the idea that the Butler is not mute!
As for the village guardian, well yes, the original concept of what 'Rover' is, was McGoohan's, and when it didn't work something had to be improvised, and it was only by pure chance that the Meteorological weather balloon was employed. Not so much as a brilliant idea or concept on the part of McGoohan, but a piece of good luck, and improvisation on the part of the production crew. Because those working in the props department had to make the balloon work, to make it behave as was wanted on screen. You should hear Micky O'Toole speaking on the subject!
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteMr. McGoohan has stated that the reason Angelo was cast ( and the Butler re-written) was to create a classic 'sinister' 'red herring' through out the series with the audience wondering if he was No.1. Mr. McGoohan's later scripts for Colombo certainly demonstrate his knowledge of the classic mystery method.
You will also find that Mr. McGoohan would have well known the strengths and weakness of such a character in his creation of The Prisoner as he had already played just such a personage (as I am certain you know)in The Hunting Lodge and No Marks For Servility:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3262/2561002090_d23804a924.jpg
Certainly the production staff had something to work out and Mr. Mcgoohan's re-imagining Rover gave them the chance to justify the faith Mr. McGoohan as Producer had placed in them to help carry out his vision. It would be one suggestion that Mr. McGoohan's own knowledge of stage craft was also part of his willingness to authorize the changes in Rover.
I am not certain that an open dialog is subject to a stalemate so long as both sides may add something to the conversation. On this side of the dialog there has been a focus on the actual persons who knew Mr. McGoohan personally and quotes from sources at the actual time of the events. Plus an attempt to look at parts Mr. McGoohan's career in theater that would have impacted his creation of The Prisoner ( such as his direct experience in several plays and teleplays that were allegorical).
There is also the common points you share with Mr. McGoohan in your need of private scholarship till publication, just as Mr. McGoohan needed in The Prisoner's production and in maintaining privacy in his personal life. It is rare that someone gets to walk a mile in someone's shoes.. it is a great chance to prosper. As Mr. McGoohan once said "If you can get rid of No.1 then we can all be free."
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
P.S. I could give you a break down on those Danger Man scripts if you like.
'The Moment of Realization!'
ReplyDeleteHello Mister Anonymous,
It would seem that Patrick McGoohan was far more talkative about 'the Prisoner' once he was on your side of the Atlantic, than ever he was when here in the United Kingdom. Because I had never before heard his talking of the Butler as being a "classic red Herring throughout the series with the audience wondering if he was No.1." I suppose I used the term 'Stalemate' because it seems that when over here in the United Kindom McGoohan said certain things about 'the Prisoner,' which was precious little, in fact Patrick McGoohan was 'bloody minded' {was distinctly unco-operative about 'the Prisoner!" When McGoohan held a press conference about 'the Prisoner,' he did so dressed in Kosho garb, and also in his costume for 'Living In Harmony,' and instead of allowing the members of the press to ask him about 'the Prisoner,' McGoohan kept asking the members of the press questions, and refusing to talk about 'the Prisoner' at all! Yet once in America he appears not only to have opened up, but talked differently about the series than he had when he was here in the UK. And that was my 'moment of realization.' I'm generally quicker on the up-take than I was here.
As for the use of the second 'Rover,' that was not so much as a authorization on the part of McGoohan, but an act of desperation on his part and that of the production crew. There they were, at Portmeirion when the original 'Rover' was tested and failed to work, just two days before filming was due to commence. It was then {so the story goes} while at Portmeirion, that a meteorological weather balloon was sighted in the sky. McGoohan said "What's that?" "It's a weather balloon" someone replied. So a member of the production crew was sent to a local weather station to acquire several meteorological weather balloons. And that's how 'Rover' was born, the story as we know it here in the UK. there was no official authorization by McGoohan, no re-write of the script for the new 'Rover.' It was all on the spur of the moment, an act of desperation to gain the weather ballons. Otherwise McGoohan had no village gaurdian!
I met Andrew Pixley on a couple of occasions, and I have his book on 'the Prisoner,' which came with a 'Prisoner' DVD box set. But I have failed thus far to read anything about the two episodes of 'Danger Man' you mentioned regarding 'Arrival.' So yes, I would be obliged if you would give me a breakdown on those two 'Danger Man' episodes.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteLong before Mr. McGoohan had used closed sets to keep the integrity of his series a mystery until the final viewer revelation there was Mr. Alfred Hitchcock ( whom Mr. McGoohan was a student of his film craft as seen in such shots used in 'To Our Best Friend')
I would imagine that Mr. Hitchcock and Mr. McGoohan would have appreciated your own needs of privacy and private scholarship until publication.
Just a note while gathering my notes:
http://www.obsessedwithfilm.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/psycho-1-1024.jpg
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteAh, but not all of McGoohan's sets for 'the Prisoner' were 'closed.' The two sets used for the cavern in 'Fall Out' was visited by Stanley Kubrick, who was producing his film '2001: A Space Odessey at the same time at MGM Studios.
Of course, as you will have observed,'The Prisoner' has a Hitchcock style moment in the opening sequence, enjoyed by Script Editor George Markstein. The man sat behind the desk to whom the Prisoner hands his letter of resignation.
I'm sure that both Alfred Hitchcock and Patrick McGoohan would have appreciated my own need for privacy and private scholarship until publication. My real need, in not delivering any of my findings regarding 'the Prisoner,' is so not to put them into the puiblic domain, for anyone to use. It is both self-rewarding, and frustrating at the same time, because I am unable to attract a publisher.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteCopy the url below *click* on it.....
https://www.amazon.com/gp/seller-account/mm-product-page.html?topic=200354160&ld=AZOnDemandMakeM
Now you can tell the New No.2 all of your secret information..:))
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
@ Of course, as you will have observed,'The Prisoner' has a Hitchcock style moment in the opening sequence, enjoyed by Script Editor George Markstein. The man sat behind the desk to whom the Prisoner hands his letter of resignation. @
ReplyDeleteI think David Tomblin behind the desk might have ranked as a Hitchcrookery moment, but it never happened.
To speak baldly, I imagine George Markstein just seemed like the perfect visualisation of the characterless Bureaucrat and of course, as McGoohan employed him already - George would have been cheap.... :-D
"When an actor comes to me and wants to discuss his character, I say, 'It's in the script.' If he says, 'But what's my motivation?, ' I say, 'Your salary.'
Alfred Hitchcock
Hello Moor Larkin,
ReplyDeleteWell said. Yes it would have been a more appropriate Hitchcockery moment if David Tomblin had been the man sat behind the desk. But as you say, George Markstein looks right for the type of characterless Civil Servant.
And I can just see Alfred Hitchcock telling an actor or actress that their salary's their motivation. Well put indeed.
Regards
David
BCNU
"The trouble with television is that i( takes an idea milks it to death." McGoohan said. "They keep it going until they're scraping the barrel for plots—we did 86 'Secret Agents' and we went through the bottom of the barrel. Patrick McGoohan July 1966
ReplyDeleteHello David
The two principle scripts, and their earlier versions, drawn from the Danger Man series that make up the template for what we see in The Arrival are The Sanctuary/Such Men Are Dangerous and The Trap/Sorry, You Have the Wrong Number.
Mr. McGoohan stated that in The Prisoner they had begun to run out of script materials and even the sources for The Arrival demonstrate that in that they were extended versions of first season episodes.
I will give you a breakdown of The Arrival and the source materials in my next post.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
@ Up until 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling' George Markstein was Script Editor on 'the Prisoner.' Markstein didn't like the direction McGoohan was taking the series, so just before 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling' George left the production. @
ReplyDeleteGiven that the 6th episode produced, "Degree Absolute" contains by far the most bizarre plotting of any episode of the series and "Do Not Forsake Me" is a simplistic secret-agent/sci-spy plot, I find it difficult to follow the logic or timing of your ascribed motivations to the bald one, David.
I suspect this *theory* stems from the days when fans thought the episodes were made in the same order as they were shown, and nobody has since wanted to admit they were talking an awful lot of crap, back in those days.
" Curiously, in recent histories of the show *Do Not Forsake Me* is suggested as having being written at the last minute. The often exemplary book that accompanied the 2007 DVD release suggest, on page 224, that the script was written very late on in the series construction, “Before leaving the series George Markstein had phoned Tilsley to see if the writer had further ideas for the series, but to no avail”
However, at first sight, this written history seems to be completely contradicted by Tilsley himself. “They were very pleased with the first one [Chimes of Big Ben] …. And I think I was asked almost immediately, Will you write another?”
see about 2 minutes into this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcYxIuvfIBQ
Watching that video snippet is quite odd because the preamble commentary is seeking to present this episode as having been written sometime after the Spring of 1967, when it is made apparent by Mr. Tilsley's opening words that he actually had the script in the Autumn of 1966. The commentary is good Propaganda but poor journalism."
http://numbersixwasinnocent.blogspot.com/2010/11/mcgoohan-in-his-own-words-i-question.html
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeletePatrick McGoohan was right about that, towards the end of 'Danger Man' the scripts do get a bit thin, running out of ideas as they were. And some of the plots were often quite repetative. I find the 25 minute episodes better written than many of the 50 minute episodes.
'Arrival' drawn from so many 'Danger Man' epiosdes, I'm intrigued, and await your breakdown on 'Arrival' in due course.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello Moor Larkin,
ReplyDeleteI introduced the piece about George Markstein having left the production of 'the Prisoner' before 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling' as a matter of information, as part of the discussion was about that particular episode, and not implying that he left at that point because 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling' as being the last straw.
I am aware that the screening order differs from the actual production order, and I have never questioned that, not in all my 44 years of Prisoner appreciation. In fact it is the production side to 'the Prisoner' that interests me the least. So many stories have been told about the production of 'the Prisoner' by crew members, that sometimes they conflict with each other.
Thank you for the short video of the interview with Vincent Tilsley. I've got that somewhere on a production tape about 'the Prisoner,' it was one of a number produced by Steven Ricks when he was a member of Six of One: The Prisoner Society. The videos are questionable for their production quality, and for the producers interview techniques. However it if were not for Steven Ricks, and the tremendous work he put into producing all 'the Prisoner - In-Depth' videos and other production tapes, all of that material, interviews etc, would be lost to fans of 'the Prisoner.' there's no real reason for my having wrote that, only I thought it should be said, seeing as I've recently watched the video you sent me.
'Do Not forsake Me Oh My Darling' may have been written in the spring of 1967, but it wasn't filmed until august 1967. I felt sorry for Vincent Tilsley, they asked him to write another episode, and he did his best, struggling to write one, which he himself was not best pleased with. But then not liking what he had written, tore it up and completely re-wrote it, cutting out much of the content, like the date the Prisoner resigned his job, on July 13th.
No matter, and this is a different topic here, how much I appreciate 'the Prisoner,' I cannot help but think that Patrick McGoohan should have just kept the seven episodes he wanted, and should have thrown away the rest like he once said.
Regards
David
BCNU
"You know, I fear by AD2000 we'll all have numbers - no names......" Patrick McGoohan Oct. 1966
ReplyDeleteIt was very difficult because they were also prisoners of conditioning, and they were used to writing for "The Saint" series of the "Secret Agent" series and it was very difficult to explain, and we lost a few by the wayside. I had sat down and I wrote a 40-page, sort of, history of the Village, the sort of telephones they used, the sewerage system, what they ate, the transport, the boundaries, a description of the Village, every aspect of it; and they were all given copies of this and then, naturally, we talked to them about it, sent them away and hoped they would come up with an idea that was feasible. Patrick McGoohan Troyer Interview
Hello David
One of Mr. McGoohan's visions that went into The Village was idea of the transformation of man into the 'new man'.
One theme of Such Men Are Dangerous is the remolding of 'prisoners' into 'new men' 'moral men' by a secret society called 'The Order' through regimentation. The car chase in numbered 'Rovers' ( the famous military vehicle) is identical to the original mechanical Rover chase in the first draft of The Arrival) The character who betrays drake in the 'loyalty test becomes the character Cobb who betrays No.6 and is a converted Village 'new man'.
The Sanctuary provides the 'helpful woman' who helps in the planned Drake/No.6 escape accordingly and also the model for the 'Butler' who serves No.2.
Sorry You Have The Wrong Number provides the model for the 'working breakfast, the concept of the kidnapping by feigned death to an isolated location and the model of the 'female maid' who pleads innocence but is an agent of the Village.
The Trap provides the kidnapping by hearse and undertaker to The Village of valuable people with information.
There more to come.
Sincerely
Mr.Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteWell Mr. McGoohan, AD2000 has come and gone, and your fear proved to be unfounded!
Over the years, many people within the realms of 'Prisoner' appreciation, have claimed various aspects of 'the Prisoner' episodes were inspired from films or T.V. programmes. You are the first person I have come across to say various 'Danger Man' episodes inspired 'Arrival.' However, as no-one in the past could ever substantiate their claims, I would really appreciate it, if you could quote me chapter and verse on where your information came from.
Yes, it would seem that the Prisoner is not the first person to have been renderd unconcious, placed in a coffin, then into the back of a hearse, to be abducted by Undertakers. Indeed as in the 'Danger Man' episode 'The Trap' when Beth Warren, who worked for the American Embassy was eventually abducted by Undertakers in a coffin, her unconcious body placed in a coffin. However, she was not the first to go through this form of abduction. In the 1959 film 'Too Many Crooks, a woman is rendered unconcious, her body placed in a coffin, then in the back of a hearse, to be abducted by Undertakers! It is the easiest thing in the world, to read something into something else. To say that this or that was inspired by something else. I myself have done it, and did so just now. Because who is to say that the idea behind the way the Prisoner was abducted by Undertakers, was not inspired by what took place in the 1959 film 'Too Many Crooks?'
Regards
David
BCNU
Writing was a bit of a strange area for me because I'd never written before. Patrick came in one day and said "I've seen Lou (Grade), we've got the money, we've got the series so write the first story" ( David Tomblin)
ReplyDeleteHello David
There is in the Invisible man series,produced by Ralph Smart, an episode called The Picnic. In this episode the Invisible Man, who has been declared a security secret, complains to his assigned security agent, "You security people forget I am a person. You just want to file me away and stamp me top secret".
It is no coincidence that this remarkable little speech is a parallel to the famous ' banner' speech made by No.6 in The Arrival. David tomblin worked on that episode of The Invisible Man, which in itself contains many notable elements seen in The Arrival such the question posed by a No.2 like figure of how one keeps a man 'top secret".
Mr. Tomblin is the only person who has the direct life experience that cover all these features seen in The Arrival,neither Mr. McGoohan or Mr. Markstein share in this.
There is no doubt that the drawing from past scripts was a tradition in generating concepts or whole new story lines was a well accepted practice. That is what has occurred in the creation of The Arrival. Simply put 'write what you know', only Mr. Tomblin shared in all the common points of knowledge mentioned.
The plot device of 'kidnapping by hearse' is even older as it was used in a Sherlock Holmes adventure but Mr. Tomblin uses it in exactly the same context as seen in The Trap and The Arrival.
What is of even more interest is the common feature shared by The Sanctuary and Mr. Markstein's claims to basing The Prisoner on the historical 'cooler' in Scotland. The timing of which is very unlikely. But that is another story.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello David
ReplyDeleteP.S.
I think if one was to find themselves in a dispute with the Inland Revenue Service they would find themselves very much reduced to being 'just a number'. ;-))
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello David
ReplyDeleteJust for reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GrnXx_CSno&feature=related
http://images.steelsm.com/images/1221400792qixffui.png
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello David
ReplyDeleteSince it was made in 1958 I will assume that Mr. Tomblin had first crack at the 'kidnapping by hearse'. ;-))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vqFovHvSlzU
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello David
ReplyDeleteHere is a link that will allow you to hear the complete (and accurate) quote from The Invisible Man episode called Picnic With Death that parallels the famous 'banner' speech by No.6 in The Arrival.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0014ZSQ88/ref=atv_feed_catalog&tag=imdb-amazonvideo-20
I hope you enjoy.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteStrange as it may seem, I have been down this road many times before. When I was in Six of One some people were obsessed with analizing every aspect of 'the Prisoner,' claiming to know every origin of every particle. It can be fun to do this, but unless we have written documentation from the writers themselves, we can only speculate till the cows come home whether {take the abduction in the hearse for instance} the idea came from X, Y or even Z.
I can recall only two instances in which Undertakers and a coffin were used in the stories of Sherlock Holmes. One is in 'The Resident Patient, in which Undertakers and a coffin appeared to the Resident Patient in a dream. The other concerned the disappearance of Lady Carfax, but she was not abducted by Undertakers in a coffin and hearse. Lady Carfax was placed in a coffin in order to be buried alive as I recall.
Just as a matter of interest, my wife has a childs picture book published in 1952 where a section of one of the stories has the hero attempting to escape an island by helicopter, where he is held against his will. He flies around the Island, but discovers that he has no control over the helicopter, and is eventally brought back to the island by remote control, just as No.6 attempts to escape the village by helicopter in 'Arrival,' but the helicopter is flown back to the village by remote control. Do we then say that was the inspiration for that scene? The plain fact of the matter is, we don't know.
One film, which has documented proof as being the inspiratioin for the episode 'The Schizoid Man,' is 'The Prisoner of Zenda,' because it was Patrick McGoohan's favourite film at the time.
However I do like the quote you used from the 'Invisible Man' the Picnic, because that does somehow sound like the Prisoner's style. "I am not a number, I am a person."
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteThe road you have been down so many times before probably did not involve looking at the documented life experience of David Tomblin who was probably, along with Mr.McGoohan, the true author of The Arrival. Two data points belong to Mr. Tomblin alone. The experience of the Invisible Man quote adapted to the famous 'banner' speech by No.6 and the mechanical Rover chase of the original shooting script of The Arrival, just as Mr.Tomblin had first shot it frame by frame first in the Such Men Are Dangerous. The 1958/1959/1966 'kidnapping by hearse' are also Mr. Tomblin's unique life experience.
The Sanctuary and Such Men Are Dangerous with their combined identical plot points to The Arrival are shared experiences, familiar to both Mr. Tomblin and Mr. McGoohan. These common experiences were not shared by Mr. Markstein who would have been completely dependent on Mr. Tomblin in these matters. This would go double, in truth, in the matters of the points drawn from The Invisible Man of a human being being declared a security matter, held in isolation as critical to espionage and protesting this as a compromise of his humanity, as seen in Picnic With Death.
There are crew statements that early production notes used the name 'Drake' to trace different parts of the first draft of the scripts. There is the statement that Mr. Tomblin had reached back to an unused concept ( of his own) from Danger Man to author The Girl Who Death. Then there is Mr. Markstein statement he thought and wrote No.6 as the agent John Drake ( a concept the Mr.McGoohan's own writing and July 1966 statement to the American press would completely eliminate).
Given the above it is no surprise that Mr. Tonblin with his own admitted newness to the experience of writing would reach for the already familiar materials of his experience with The Invisible Man, The Sanctuary/Such Men are Dangerous, as was the precedent of his experience, to generate the concepts we see in The Arrival, concepts some of which were known only to Mr. Tomblin by direct prior experience.
The best documentation is in the documented experience of Mr. Tomblin and the document that is the shooting script called The Arrival.
Certainly this is the road less traveled. ;-)
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello David
ReplyDeleteHere is a link that will take you to a video clip that contains the full scene and quote from The Invisible Man episode Picnic With Death:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0014ZSQ88/ref=atv_feed_catalog&tag=imdb-amazonvideo-20
My earlier quote is a slight paraphrase from memory.
I hope you enjoy.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
P.S. I attempted to post this before but it has not shown up in published form, so this may be a repeat post if it does show later today. I just want to make sure you have the full and accurate quote.
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteYour comment was posted as being 'spam,' and I've just caught up with that, so have de-spamed it. And yes, I did enjoy it.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteA road less travelled - is a journey well spent.
All writers draw from life experiences, as well as drAwing inspiration from others work, as well as ones previous work. Patrick McGoohan would surely have dawn from his memories of his time as a boarder at Ratcliffe College, as some of the similarities between Ratcliffe and the village are most striking. For exmaple the self contained community. The pupils who are given numbers, and who are known more by their numbers than their actual names. The pair of large wrought iron gates at the end of the drive leading up to Ratcliffe College, which would slam shut with a resounding clang, keeping the young Patrick McGoohan prisoner for the term. And it also has it's own graveyard!
What is it you mean by David Tomblin's 'unique life experience?' Writing about being abducted by Undertakers is one thing, but I seriously doubt that he actually experienced it personally, to have been abducted by Undertakers. To have lived through anything, is a 'life experience,' not simply to have written about it. Did David Tomblin actually write in documented eveidence that he used 'The Invisible Man' for inspiration, or indeed any of the 'Danger Man' episodes? Because with out actual say so from David Tomblin, anything else is just hearsay. I have a video interview taken with David Tomblin, at no point does he suggest this.
Are you aware that 'The Invisible Man' was the fore runner for 'Danger Man?'
Indeed Drake was used in the early production draft notes, so, so much for the Prisoner not being John Drake! George Markstein is on record during 'Six Into One; The Prisoner File as saying the Prisoner is John Drake, who else could he be? he said. Patrick McGoohan is on record as saying the Prisoner is not John Drake, a clash of ideas, the one contradicting the other, but neither need be wrong.
It is true, that I am as guilty as anyone for disecting 'the Prisoner' down to the bone. And I am on record as saying 'the Prisoner' is best viewed through the eyes of a child, because it is we as adults who over complicate 'the Prisoner.' If we think about too much, or begin to tamper with it, we lose the original concept. That being one man's struggle against the system, as he tries to maintain his identity, and individuality within society.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDelete****************The Locked Room **********
The issue of 'unique life experience' is resolved by my pointing out that it is only Mr. Tomblin who had direct production experience of several clear plot points used in The Arrival such as in the statement: 'just as Mr.Tomblin had first shot it frame by frame first in the Such Men Are Dangerous'.
In the case of the Invisible Man episode called 'The Locked Room' Mr. Tomblin was not 'kidnapped by undertakers' but he did film that exact imagined scenario ( in an 'espionage' story ) as a member of the production crew.
Multiple points later used in The Prisoner are part of Mr. Tomblin's 'life experience' as a member of the shooting crew in productions that were precursors to the material we see in The Arrival.
I can imagine that elements from John Drake and Danger Man could be used to guide early script efforts but that would no more make No.6 John Drake than the use of the quote from the Invisible Man episode would ( 'I am a human being' etc.) would make No.6 'Peter Brady'.In fact elements from 'Danger Man'were used in 'The Prisoner' as I have pointed out and are documented as being from concepts drawn from Mr. Tomblin.
I have drawn a 'locked room' scenario in that only Mr. Tomblin had certain direct experience of material identical to that which we see in The Arrival, just for the fun of it I checked with an attorney and he said that the cumulative points made in the 'direct knowledge' reaches the level known as 'guilty knowledge' in courts on either side of the pond. Mr. Tomblin is 'guilty' of writing 'The Arrival' based on past experience from scripted material only he had direct contact with... a well established and documented practice used in 'The Prisoner'by Mr. Tomblin himself.
In April 1966 at the time of his pitch to Lou Grade about The Prisoner Mr. McGoohan had referred to his 'new character'in the British press and in the American press in July 1966 'John Drake of 'Secret Agent' is gone'( Patrick McGoohan). But because the The Prisoner was conceived as an allegory from it's inception No.6 could be John Drake if one wishes to imagine the 'new character' as such.
Clearly it is accepted that Mr. Tomblin drew on previous knowledge from Danger Man in the creation of The Girl Who was Death, just as he did in material known to him by direct experience when authoring The Arrival.
In a way I am trying to present an examination of The Prisoner in a new light by looking at the unexamined contributions of Mr. Tomblin to The Arrival by looking at the source materials that were unique to Mr. Tomblin and were identical to the content of the working script of The Arrival. To my knowledge most of the fan examination has focused on the pole positions of Mr. McGoohan and Mr. Markstein.
I am glad you enjoyed the quote from the Invisible Man episode.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteBlimey, get me Rumpole on the phone!
I think I'm the one "locked in the room" and can't get out! But your comments are much appreciated on this subject.
Regards
David
BCNU
Long ago I became disatisfied with the term allegory, and locked it away in a box which I keep within the deep recesses of my mind! (Mr. David Stimpson)
ReplyDeleteHello David
Not a locked room just a 'locked box'. ;-) I hope you enjoyed the exchange of information.
You can find the quote by Mr. Pixley about the observation of two story lines by going to Mr. Larkin's blog and linking from there. You will also find there a further deconstruction of Mr. Markstein's claims to have 'created' The Prisoner. That would leave only Mr. Tomblin and Mr. McGoohan as the proper two persons to author most of what we see in The Arrival.
There are a number of issues yet unexamined in this series of posts such as the relationship of 'The Sanctuary and 'The Cooler' and how Mr. Markstein's claim of an SOE investigation is a clincher that he did not originate The Prisoner. But that is also a matter of the factual history behind the origins of The Village as based on an insight from Mr. Lowin and the actual contemporary 'villages' that Mr. McGoohan had knowledge of at the time he created The Prisoner.
I have contacted one Mr. Perry Mason on this side of the pond.;-)
http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/booth-reviews/assets_c/2010/10/perry_mason-thumb-572xauto-239105.jpg
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
P.S. A bit more on 'The Village'salute in some circles such as in, Brazil it is an insult. It also has a meaning that originated in the turkish bath houses followed in Arabic saying 'will I see you?"
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI have indeed enjoyed our exchange of information, all I can say is that I wished that I could have put more information to it. But at this current time I am busy editing a manuscript based on 'the Prisoner.'
Yes there are a number of unexplained issues in this series of posts, and I trust we will pay them due attention. Like 'The Sanctuary'episode of 'Danger Man.' I'm not too sure where any of this epsiode could be the inspiration of any part of 'Arrival,' as 'The Sanctuary,' as I recall the plot concerns a group from the IRA who have based themselves in a remote area of Sctoland, and from there they run raids in Northern Ireland robbing banks for money to buy guns. That aspect of 'The Sanctuary is more in keeping with the supposed gun runners in 'Many Happy Returns.'
Yes, I've heard that in Brazil the 'Village' salute is an insult. But I had not heard of the one in the Turkish bath houses followed in Arabic saying 'Will I see you?' I've got a list of different meanings for this hand gesture somehwere, one other, I forget which country of origin, where it means 'I'll kill you.'
As for Inverlair Lodge, It is a bit of a complex thing to go into within the text of this comment, more for next time. But I think you will be interested in my next piece of blog which I will posting in the next few minutes. It is a magazine article.
So it seems we are to continue the exchange of information. And in that we are thinking, questioning, and that is what Patrick McGoohan wanted. He didn't want people simply accepting, he wanted to make them angry. Well he certainly did that alright, because here on this side of the Atlantic in 1968 the general public were outraged that Patrick McGoohan had not given them the answers which they hoped they would get in 'Fall Out.' That might have satisifed some, but what would have been the point had McGoohan put the answers to all those questions? He would have taken the fun out of 'the Prisoner' for so many people. And I wouldn't be talking with you now.
Best wishes
David.
BCNU
Yes there are a number of unexplained issues in this series of posts, and I trust we will pay them due attention. Like 'The Sanctuary'episode of 'Danger Man.' I'm not too sure where any of this epsiode could be the inspiration of any part of 'Arrival.... (Mr. David Stimpson)
ReplyDeleteHello David
Actually the earlier post quoted below does address the issue of 'The Sanctuary' episode and what it supplied for The Arrival:
One of Mr. McGoohan's visions that went into The Village was idea of the transformation of man into the 'new man'.
One theme of Such Men Are Dangerous is the remolding of 'prisoners' into 'new men' 'moral men' by a secret society called 'The Order' through regimentation. The car chase in numbered 'Rovers' ( the famous military vehicle) is identical to the original mechanical Rover chase in the first draft of The Arrival) The character who betrays Drake in the 'loyalty test becomes the character Cobb who betrays No.6 and is a converted Village 'new man'.
The Sanctuary provides the 'helpful woman' who helps in the planned Drake/No.6 escape accordingly and also the model for the 'Butler' who serves No.2.
Sincerely
Mr.Anonymous
The above quote was posted April, 8 2011 21:24
The best of luck on your 'The Prisoner' based book.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteYes of course, we had covered 'The Sanctuary,' I had clearly forgotten, so an error on my part.
'Such Men Are Dangerous' as are any such men who take the moral high gound as the General does, setting himself up above all others. This was a particularly dangerous man because he put himself up as judge and jury, having set up a secret society, and having selected his men, turned them not so much into 'new' men, but into assassins, who murder political leaders who are seen as decadent, and corrupt demagogues, and such men are dangerous and need to be removed, according to the General. The General took the moral high ground, but his downfall, and that of his secret society, was brought about by a man with even greater moral standards - John Drake.
I don't see Cobb as a 'new' man. He's still the same person he was, but he's simply gone over to the other side, as No.2 of both 'The Chimes of Big Ben' and 'Once Upon A Time' did, but later in 'Fall Out' regretted that he had resisted for so short a time. I see Cobb as going to work for a new department, possibly the one which administers the village back in London. Why London? Well it's quite obvious that Cobb had not defected to the other side, that being behind the Iron or Bamboo curtains, as Cobb is dressed for London in Bowler hat and business suit.
The 'late' No.2 pronounced in 'Fall Out' "I feel like a new man!" Such was his 'new' appearence. Certainly the 'late' No.2 had been given a second chance, because as far as the administration behind the village is concerned, not even the dead are not allowed to rest. But I myself have a problem with that. The trouble is you see, I'm not so sure that the 'late' No.2 actually died! I feel he was resuscitated, rather than resurrected as many fans of 'the Prisoner' think he was.
Now that is interesting, how you have linked the escape attempt by Drake in a Land Rover vehicle, and the chase by others in Land Rovers, and the original 'Rover' in 'the Prisoner.' No-one has come up with that one before.
I know that Drake was betrayed in the 'Loyalty Test' in 'Such Men Are Dangerous,' but Cobb never betrayed the Prisoner, not directly anyway. And I'm not even sure Cobb lied to the Prisoner when they were talking in that hospital ward in 'Arrival.'
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteSome other features you will note about 'Such Men Are Dangerous' in common with 'The Arrival' is the repeating of dialog questioning 'What is it all about?' The wife of the Major acts as 'local transportation' for Drake. There is the continues surveilance of the 'Prisoners' who are to be transformed through regimentation and 'virtues'. There is the 'Major's speech about how nations must be 'guided' by the'Order'and brought to the 'Order's' world view, a theme explored later in Fall Out in "The regrettable bullet.... smack on the backside...' speech by 'The President'. The review of the "prisoner's life and work merits. 'The Butler'.
All the above are elements explored by Mr. Tomblin and Mr. McGoohan ( In The Arrival/ Fall Out/ Free For All ).
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello David
ReplyDeleteCobb indeed betrays No.6 trust as a friend (unlike Dutton). Cobb was '... a good man..' so says No.6 and shows contempt for a woman who loved him... he is now a New Man by Village standards not the high moral standards of No.6... who he has sold out to his'new masters', namely The Village.
Cobb could be returning to a post in any part of the diplomatic corp or to an embassy, dressed in his manner, to carry out gathering the "Information' his 'new masters' so prized.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThere is no indication that No.6 and Cobb were actual friends, ex-colleagues yes. I still think Cobb didn't betray No.6, after all they had only met on the hospital ward that one brief time. No.6 was deceived by Cobb's faked suicide, intended for No.6 to think his ex-collegaue was dead, which he did. Cobb didn't decieve No.6 in this, No.6 was told Cobb had jumped out of the window by a medical orderly "Cobb was a good man" No.6 told No.9, and yes, I think Cobb was a good man, until he was abducted to the Village!
Dutton too was an ex-colleague of No.6's, but he never willingly betrayed No.6 in the early moments of 'Dance of the Dead,' I mean to say Dutton could hardly help himself in that drugged conditioned state of mind he was in.
Cobb may very well have 'sold out,' but to which side did he sell out to? I suppose it all depends on which side runs the Village. But if it is the British, who are behind the Village, who are Cobb's new masters then? Remembering that Cobb himself is 'British.'
If the Village is supposed to be on the Baltic, as in 'The Chimes of Big Ben' then it is behind the Iron Curtain, but then how can the presence of both the Colonel and Fotheringay be accounted for in the Village? Are they traitors also, having 'sold out?'
Cobb many very well be returning to a post in any part of the diplomatic corp, an Embassy, or indeed to melt back into the that massive organisation of the Civil Service.
Cobb's new masters are not the Village. That is but an installation, it is the Adminstration behind the Village that must be discovered, and the government behind that Administration.
There is no proof that Cobb is working for the village as he prepares to leave the village. It is always possible that Cobb is heading for Europe, namely Brussels, the centre of what was then the Common Market, our 'new' masters in Europe today!
Regards and a very happy easter to you.
David
BCNU
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteThe whole Earth as the Village! Or that according to the General and his misguided order of regimentation and moral virtue. Certainly the mass majority of people have never had to face the regretable bullet, let alone having to fire one. But for the millions upon millions in the past who have, we have much to thank them for, in sustaining the world upon which we live. As for a smack on the backside, the world has changed since 'the Prisoner.' To smack a child on the backside these days, would be deemed as assault, even to be considered as child abuse. And against popular belief the whole world is not like the Village, save for the surveillance we all live under. As for the Generals regimented virtues in 'Such Men are Dangerous', well a man called Hitler and his Nazi cronies tried that one, and they ended up on a sticky wicket, as did the General and his order.
You draw excellent parallels between 'Such Men Are Dangerous, and 'Arrival,' and 'Fall Out.' But it is the easiest thing in the world to draw parallels between almost anything and something else, such as the rocket aspect of 'Fall Out,' and that of closing scenes of 'Battle Beneath The Planet of the Apes,' I think that's the one. But perhaps that is for another time.
Regards
David
BCNU
But it is the easiest thing in the world to draw parallels between almost anything and something else... Mr. David Stimpson
ReplyDeleteHello David
Yes,but not so easy to draw parallel lines that sometimes meet at exactly the same parallel of dialog, action scenes, plot points, characters, narative technique, names (Rover)etc.that one of the principle writers had exclusive (locked room) exposure to, all in as little as two or three scripts(Picnic With Death, The Locked Room and Such Men Are Dangerous).
No.6 says that he 'knew' Cobb and that he was a 'good man'at a minimum he betrayed what ever qualities that would have made him a 'good man' by No.6 rather high standards, one does not need to betray a country to be a 'traitor'.
Happy Easter.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI do not dispute David Tomblin would have translated scenarios from his former work, to later projects. But I cannot believe that he alone was the originator of these ideas, which would all have been used before by various writers, going back many, many years, if not longer, and he in turn would have drawn ideas from other peoples work.
Cobb may very well have been a traitor to the very ideals that made him a 'good man,' but was he a traitor? Let me ask you, which side do you think, which country, is behind the village?
Regards
David
BCNU
It was very difficult because they were also prisoners of conditioning, and they were used to writing for "The Saint" series of the "Secret Agent" series and it was very difficult to explain... Patrick McGoohan
ReplyDeleteHello David
We are in total agreement about Mr. Tomblin drawing his inspirations from other sources. One source was certainly Mr. Ralph Smart as author of several of the scrpits that have been examined and Mr. Smart may have drawn from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and so on.That is made clear by Mr. McGoohan's statement above.
I think The Village is indeed a 'unit of our society' and reflects elements of the UK culture but with that said I have always thought of The Village as a rouge operation of the security communities of MI6 and the CIA... the 'special relationship' taken to an extreme much like the theme of Such Men Are Dangerous.The CIA/MI6 were even known to covertly co-operate at times with the KGB if it served their interest. Thus The Village was a model for a 'future society' that would emerge guided by an elite who thought of themselves as what stood between humanity and chaos, what they lacked was a moral core that No.6 had and they could not fathom. So you might say that 'both sides' ran The Village.. covertly.
Thank you for the exchange, if naught else it is fun to see and review some favorite episodes of Danger Man and The Prisoner, The Invisble Man is just a nice bonus.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteSeeing as 'Danger Man' is amongst our exchanging of views and deliberations, did you know, and you probaly might, that the scripts for the ITC series 'Man In A Suitcase' are unused 'Danger Man' scripts?
I suppose being in agreeemnt regarding David Tomblin, and the sources of his inspiration, must logically lead to another question, who had the original thoughts? And is it possible, and I don't want to get too deep on this one, for anyone to have an original idea today, as everyone draws inspiration from past sources.
The Village as a 'unit of society,' well it's certinly that alright, and that was part of Patrick McGoohan's idea of the Village.
During 'The Chimes of Big Ben,' No.2 {Leo Mckern} explained to No.6 "What has been created is an International community. A perfect blueprint for World order. When both sides facing each other suddenly realise they are looking into a mirror they will see that 'this' {the Village} is the pattern for the future.'
Well I'm not sure about the whole earth as the Village, but there are comparisons between the Village and what Europe has become today, an International community, of which the UK is a part of the European Union. The Village enjoys a single currency, the Work or Credit Unit, while a number of countries within the European Union have a single currency, the Euro. Of course at the time of 'the Prisoner' the European Community was very young, and called the Common Market, set up so that it would be easy for European countries to trade with each other. So one could say that the Village being a blueprint for world order, is actually a prediction for what Europe was become.
But having said that, it was Napoleon Bonaparte who had a plan for Europe, to have a unified Europe, with the same laws, and one currency - the Franc, and with France at the core of Europe, being governed from Paris. Also Napoleon had the idea for a Channel tunnel between France and England.
Both sides run the Village, covertly of course. Now there's an ingenious thought of yours, and one I had not come across before. Fans in the past have concentrated on one side or the other running the Village, not two sides co-operating together. But then that means Cobb could not have been a traitor, not having gone over to the 'other side,' not if both sides are co-operating. Perhaps Cobb was simply changing departments, not countries.
And thank you for this exchange, we might not agree, but we are doing what Patrick McGoohan intended, we are talking, discussing, debating, exchanging ideas. And it's fun into the bargain. You mentioned favourite episodes, a list of mine would contain:
DANGER MAN
Not So Jolly Roger
I'm Afraid You Have The Wrong Number
Under The lake
View From A Villa
Colony Three
Say It With Flowers
The Man With The Foot
A Position Of Trust
Loyalty Always pays
The Black Book
The Mirrors New
Don't Nail Him Yet
THEPRISONER
Arrival
The Chimes of Big Ben
Free For All
Checkmate
Many Happy Returns
Dance of the Dead
Can I ask you, have you seen the 2009 series of THEPRISONER?
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteSome of the 'ideas' used in Danger Man are as old as the Bible such as the house full of spies run by a madame in the Paper Chase, this was part of the story we read about when Joshua sent spies into the land Of Cannan. I suppose if you think that God wrote the Bible then you couldn't have a better authority than that ...;-)).
Cobb ' knew' No.6 and 'was a good man' then betrays those priciples and is thus a 'traitor' to what ever before had made him a 'good man'. If The Village is a rouge operation operating outside of national and international law he is then a traitor to the U.K.
I have seen The Prisoner 2009. If you were to watch the film Gods and Monsters with it's battle of wills the struggle between the 2009 No.2 and the new (weaker) No.6 I think will prove much more interesting viewing. The writer of TP 2009 admits he wrote the story of No.2 rather than No.6 in his ' re-imaginning' of the classic. I think that TP 2009 has a rather strange message that the only hope for the world is a new corporatism and that we all need a benign corporate CEO to 'save' us from ourselves. All in all a rather poor message.
I have read that several 'Danger Man' scripts also made their way into The Champions, one with a battle with a computer and a rather diturbing 'torture' episode that served as a season climax.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteBeing an athiest, I couldn't possibly give any opinion as to who it was, who wrote the Bible, other than it being a human being. And that is as far as I wish to get involved with any kind of religious discussion.
If Cobb was a 'good man' he wasn't quite as good as he might have been. Because he wasn't as good as No.6, after all, No.6 survived all the 16 tests set him, and that included the ultimate test of 'Once Upon A Time,' that's why he was to have been presented with the offer of power by the President during 'Fall Out.'
The trouble about the Village is, we just don't know what power, what Country, what Government, what department, or organisation is behind it. So anything we say about Cobb, whether or not he was a traitor to No.6, Country, or both, might be both right and wrong.
I see, as does my wife Morag, the 2009 series of 'THEPRISONER' as having the Village created for the express purpose of taking people there, if only in their subconscious, people who are suffering mentally. People who are broken emotionally, have been abused, who have suffered mental breakdown, and in need of mental stimulation. People brought to the Village are made better and then released back to their other lives. The Village began as an experiment, created in the mind of Helen-M2's mind, Helen being an expert Psychologist. On the face of it, the Village seems an ideal Utopia, except for it's dark side. That people who are selected to be taken to the Village, go there unknowingly! I think the Village was created with good intentions, but what life for Two, only able to converse with his wife occasionally. The rest of the time she, M2, must remain unconscious. As for her son 11-12, he doesn't exist at all, having been born in the Village. In the 2009 series of 'THEPRISONER,' the Village is all in the mind, and that has long since been suggested of the 1960's series, suggested as far back as the 1980's! I see 'THEPRISONER' as making the question about the reality we live in today. Our everyday surroundings which we take for granted. The corporation of Summakor is behind the Village, but I see that as being no different from whomsoever is behind the Village of the original series. Yes, there is a question of giant, multi-corportaions ruling governments, countries even, but hasn't that always been the case since the first day multi-corporations were created? Perhaps without multi corporations, the world might implode on itself. Not that I'm in favour of multi National corporations, because the bigger one gets, the more corrupt, and above the law these multi National corporations see themselves.
On a personal level, I have had a hard life, difficult sometimes. And there have been times in the past when I have gone willingly to the Village, that of Portmeirion, to cut myself off from the outside world for a couple of weeks at a time. To both lose and gather myself, mentally. So there has been a time for me, when life became too difficult, that the possibility of being taken to the Village of the 2009 series, would have proved to be very acceptable, if you see what I mean.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteThe power behind The Village was No.1 "No. 1 is the boss." (No.6) " If you get rid of No.1 we can all be free." (Patrick McGoohan)Mr. McGoohan once explained Rover as an extention of corrupt authority, get rid of that authority and monsterous Rover evaporates.
If you have seen the film called Forbiden Planet ( Sci-fi based on The Tempest) you will find a rather Rover like creature who is a 'monster from the Id", the film itself is well worth watching and any The Prisoner fan will enjoy the parallels.
Mr. McGoohan himself beat the new No.2 of The Prisoner 2009 into the land of a collective unconsience, that heals the members of it's many limbed community, in a little film called Hysteria, well worth a watch. In fact there is a hint that the charater No.2 of TP 2009 may just be the charater that Mr. McGoohan plays in Hysteria, if so then perhaps we are watching an elder No.6 using Seltzman like tech to carry on with The Village as No.1 after all.
It sounds like your own adventures in the need for some rest in Portmeirion were much like Leo Mckern's need for a break after the intense scenes in Once Upon A Time. Now that Mr. McGoohan has become, what a Shaman would call an Ancestor to us all any dreams of him would be just like meeting him in The Village of TP2009. "It means what it means". Siddartha would agree that there is no creator 'god' just an awakening from a dream.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI wonder what would happen if one could rid oneself of No.1? Would what is left, be all the weaker for it? I recall in an episode of 'Star Trek,' when a transporter had malfunctioned or something, how it separated the physical alter egos of Captain James T. Kirk, and how one side of him was weaker without the other. Thus demonstrating that the two alter egos must live together. That the two alter egos of man, no matter how bad the darker side is, make us what we are, and it is possible that each and every one of us, cannot live without the No.1 side to our nature.
I have indeed seen 'Forbidden Planet' several times, but I had never before made the connection, or have drawn the parallel between the monster 'ID' and that of the Village Guardian, of the 2009 series of 'THEPRISONER.'
'Rover' is conjoured up by the subconscious mind of Six, as the monster 'ID.'
As for the Village Guardian of the original series, I had seen that as some alien creature, possibly genetically engineered. But always lurking in the back of my mind, as it has with many fans of the original series, 'Rover' as symbolising ones own worst fears. And if that is the case, I wonder what own worst fear the Prisoner faced up to against the Village Guardian, that time on the beach in 'Arrival?
What a fascinating and intriguing thought, of the old man-93, the former No.6, using Seltzman technology in order to carry on the Village! trouble with that one is, the old man-93 suffers a Village death, and thereby returns to his 'other' life. But then which 'other' life, that in London, or in the former Village? 93 had a sketch of St. Stephen's Tower, which houses the bell of Big Ben in London. Yet 93 was wearing an old style Village blazer!
I became very attached to Portmeirion, and every time I used to visit, or stay there for a holiday, it was always like coming home, even if there was a matter of months between stays there. But I have not been back to Portmeirion since 2003, and have no desire to return there. I do still hold Portmeirion in a deep regard, and have many fond memories of holidays, and visits there, not to mention of 'Prisoner' Conventions held at Portmeirion. But life is so much better now, and has been for quite some time. Besides, it is so expensive to stay at Portmeirion now. I could,go on a 7 day cruise, for the same cost as it is to stay in Portmeirion!
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteYou will find the theme of good and evil devided in the Sir Lew Grade sponsored film The Dark Crystal by Jim Henson. You may recall that the character who calls up the Id Monster in Forbidden Planet cries out that "It is my evil self that is at that door." he reject his 'evil self' and then is seen gradually dieing.
Mr. McGoohan in an interview posed that Rover was a "sheep dog" who was sent out ot return anyone who tried to be an 'individual' to the 'flock", indeed in one of the scripts it says that Rover 'sniffs' No.6, just like a guard dog would.
In the episode "Change of Mind" one of the prisoner's is being conditioned to 'fear' Rover, No.2 and words like 'rebel'.
Perhaps what No.6 in TP1967 would have seen on the beach that launched Rover was a glimpse of himself as No.1.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello David
ReplyDeleteHere is a thought for you. In a Star Trek TNG episode called Birthright the character 'Worf' finds a lost 'prison camp' where Klingons and Romulans have learned to live together in peace and ending their version of the 'cold war'.
What if The Village is a 'lost' Colony 3 where the inhabitents over through their spy masters and tried to live in 'peace' and try to perfect the human condition but just could not give up the old spy community ways and thus organized The Village in 'some ways democratic' with the KGB/CIA/MI6/FBI ect various No.2's taking contol of The Village.
Sincerely
Mr.Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteA late response this time, I wasn't feeling too clever yesterday, my get up and go, got up and went!
I've not heard of the film 'The Dark Crystal,' I'll have to ,look that one up. And yes, I remember how in 'Forbidden Planet' that the doctor cries out that it is his evil self on the other side of that door, and that he rejects his evil self. And for what it is worth, I've just had the mental picture of the death of Rover in 'Fall Out,' after the rocket has blasted off out of it's silo beneath the village.
Can it be, that in the way the monster from the 'Id' dies, so too does Rover in 'Fall Out?' that's not quite right, I'l have to think about that one.
That's right about Rover being the sheep dog of the Village, returning escapees to the flock, rounding up individuals. But I had not read about Rover 'sniffing' No.6. I've often wondered if Rover can think for itself. I realsed that Rover can hear, judging by the way it reacts to the passwords given to it by both 6's in 'The Schizoid Man,' unless Rover simply sensed Curtis' fear of it. But I'd not considered Rover's other possible senses, like smell. I have always been of the opinion that Rover detects it's prey by movement, as in the way sharks detect my movement, hence No.2's order to 'Be still' in Arrival, the young man who wasn't still, and consequently is attacked by Rover. And then in the early moments of 'Checkmate,' pedestrians standing to the side of the road, and cyclists dismounting their bicycles as Rover passes by!
As for TP2009, I like that notation of yours, there is no No.1. According to 1,100, and that of Village history, there is no Number One. There has never been a Number One, and there never will be!" Interesting one that, don't you think?
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello Mister Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI did watch 'Star Trek-The Next Generation' for a while when it first appeared on British television. But I got fed up with Captain Pickard trying to talk aliens to death!
I have to say, well I don't 'have' to say, because I found that idea of yours interesting, of the Village being a 'lost' 'Colony Three' style of place, where people are trying to live in peace, attempting to perfect the human condition.
I have never seen the series of 'Lost,' but I do understand, by what people have told me, that 'Lost' is very Prisoneresque in many ways.
The Village in the Cold war period, the changing of No.2's meaning that for one term the KGB is in charge of the Village. While the next term of office it's MI5, followed by the CIA. Interpol et, etc, etc......never come across that idea either. And it works when you think of the actors and actresses nationallities, of those who play the roles of No.2. 'The Prisoner' may seem quintisentially British. But when you consider the natiionality of all those actors and actresses who star and appear in 'the Prisoner,' the Village is indeed a very cosmopolitan place.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteIn one of your earlier posts you mention that the Ralph Smart produced Invisible Man was considered a precursor to The Prisoner. Could you be good enough to elaborate.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymouse,
ReplyDeleteYes I do recall writing that ealier post, but in which post I'd be hard pressed to find in a hurry. However, it was not 'the Prisoner,' but 'Danger Man' which 'The Invisible Man series is thought to be a foerunner to.
I should also have liked to elaborate more on the topic, but unfortunately I cannot do so. The reason being, that I had it by word of mouth from someone, who said if I watched a couple of episodes of 'The Invisible Man' I would understand.
Regards
David
I'm Obliged.
well the invisible man was just Dangerman's production team - so what? There really aren't that many echoes in it. Funnily enough though, David McCallum in Sapphire and Steel (and a noted Invisible Man himself) does a great homage to The Prisoner during a door opening scene.
ReplyDeleteAnyway, i followed as much of this comment section as i could - it strikes me as some sort of success for the Prisoner that the strident questioning "Who was Number 6?" is as furious as "Why did you resign?" in the show itself and as fascinating but fruitless in terms of a direct answer.
(The gentleman scientist theory is a new one on me - seemss to fly in the face of The Girl Who Was Death somewhat IMO)
but, ok - i'll just add that PM often played the same character and the context was rarely the issue. Brand (the Ibsen play) has him mysteriously arriving in 'The Village' and causing all sorts of trouble before becoming ever more messianic as the eventual and explosive climax nears (there is much in common with Fall Out and the rest). Post Village and in Columbo, in an episode called Identity Crisis (natch!) his character when asked "What do you do?" replies, "I buy and Sell - information". (One among many nods and winks in that episode, but one that makes a decent post-Prisoner point). So it goes. On and on. You can even read The Hard Way in terms of the Prisoner if you want.
As for Dangerman - does anyone really think 'John Drake' is his REAL name???
Be seeing you.
Well half a dozen of the other it might be, its certainly six of one! Although I'm not sure what the point is you are trying to make here.
ReplyDeleteI was merely pointing out a similarity between the two television series, that's all.
We might not know who No.6 is, but we certainly know why he resigned, he actually told No.2 why he resigned in 'Once Upon A Time,' 'For peace, for peace of mind. Because too many people know too much!'
There are many television series which a parallel can be drawn with 'the Prisoner,' and the character of No.6. Patrick McGoohan could have been playing John Drake as No.6 for all we know. And what about 'Ice Station Zebra, was the British agent John Drake, but under another name?
Was John Drake 'Danger Man's real name? Well of course it was. Do you really think that John Drake can be put in a box along with all the other aliases he used? Agents use diferent names, but mostly keep to their own christain name. That's why at time John Drake would use his christian name as in John Kieron in 'Don't nail Him Yet.' Because if someone uses your name, you react to it automatically. But use a false christain name, and you might forget to react, or react when you shouldn't.
David
I'm Obliged.