In a recent commet Mister Anonymous was writing of this bust, which is first seen in 'Arrival,' then again in the Rover cave of 'Free For All,' and much later in the series in sir Charles Portland's office in 'Do Not Forsake Me Oh My Darling.'
I have myself attempted to identify the personage of the bust, but have thus far failed to do so, as I have with the bust of Voltaire for example. But the bust is obviously of someone of importance possibly that of a General, judging by the fact that he is wearing a cape over a military uniform. Also he is wearing a medal suspended about his neck on a ribbon. Or the bust could be that of some royal personage wearing military uniform. I don't think he's General Gordon, or Kitchener for instance.
Perhaps there is a reader of this blog who can identify the personage which this bust depicts.
Be seeing you
I have myself attempted to identify the personage of the bust, but have thus far failed to do so, as I have with the bust of Voltaire for example. But the bust is obviously of someone of importance possibly that of a General, judging by the fact that he is wearing a cape over a military uniform. Also he is wearing a medal suspended about his neck on a ribbon. Or the bust could be that of some royal personage wearing military uniform. I don't think he's General Gordon, or Kitchener for instance.
Perhaps there is a reader of this blog who can identify the personage which this bust depicts.
Be seeing you
Hello David
ReplyDeleteThank you for your efforts. The bust bears a resemblence to Crown Prince Friedrich the 3rd.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-2004-0099%2C_Kaiser_Friedrich_III..jpg
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
DeleteNo need to thank me. I think that's a good piece of team work. I provide a couple of pictures, and you have managed to identify the bust.
Thank you for the link. I've taken a look at pictures of Kaiser Friedrich III and I agree, the bust has to be of him. Well done.
Kind regards
David
BCNU
Being German you're not particularly prone to monarchy as such. Mr. Anonymus could be right nonetheless, the bust could well be that of Kaiser Friedrich Wilhelm Nikolaus Karl von Preussen. But after all, what would a statue of that 99-day emperor (he died of cancer after this short reign) be doing in the Village? Did the props dept. have enough British statues? But wait, there's another item in the Prisoner closely linked to early 19th century monarchy: the famous Radetzky March. Played by the Village Band, it was composed by Johann Strauss (father) and premiered in 1848. This, in turn, emanating from Prussia's monarchic contender the so-called "KuK" empire ("Kaiser und König") of the Hungaro-Austrian dual Monarchy. I've often wondered what all this should have to do with a series like The Prisoner and still I haven't come to a final conclusion. Except that the use of that piece of music in combination with the eclectic Portmeirion setting evokes both very remote times as well as timelessnes as to contrast to the otherwise futuristic setting of the stories. It must have been this faint notion and the existence of the movie by Alain Resnais that let me call my own website according to "Be seeing you!or: Last year in the Village". Make up your minds! - BCNU!
ReplyDeleteHello Arno,
DeleteI can only suggest that the busts came from the MGM film studios, as many, if not all, of the props for 'the Prisoner' came from there. The busts and statues are a mixture, from Roman Emporers, to Voltaire, Kaiser Friedrich Wilhelm III, and others which have thus far defied identification.
Regarding the use of Radetzky March, I've no idea why that peice was chosen. However it does add to the general atmosphere of the Village I am of the opinion that the choice of music used in 'the Prisoner' series is an important one. For the music adds as much to the series as the acting and dialogue.
Kind Regards
David
BCNU
Hello Everyone
ReplyDeleteThe bust of Friedrich the 3rd may have been deliberate symbolism on the part of Mr.McGoohan who took special interest in the studio shots of Free For All. Of note the Emperor was noted for practically having !Progress! as his middle name due to his liberal education in England. He was one of the great hopes for a unified Europe under a British, German alliance.
His 99 day rule then silencing by cancer of the larynx could have foreshadowed No.6 own experience of being shouted down in Fall Out. The number 99 may have been of interest when inverted to become 66... the inversion of 6 into 9 has been commented on by Mr. McGoohan in various interviews.
The idea that The Village would have had various historical figures who factored in a dream of a united world order under their design fits rather well in the symbolic language The Village might have chosen. Further the twist that these figures from history were watching you literally through The Village cameras would be consistent with Village psychological tactic.
The irony of the Emperor watching the beating of No.6 is that he opposed the use of the 'blood and iron' tactics to unify the Prussian state, preferring diplomacy and peaceful negotiations over the 'regrettable bullet'.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
DeleteAs a fictional politician once commented, "You might think that. I couldn't possibly comment!"
Regards
David
BCNU
Basically I think they took whichever props they could get. Nothing more. But - what Anonymous says widens and enhances the viewer's perspective for the sake of interpretation and discussion. And that is something not to be underestimated. Thanks! As a work of art there's certainly more to The Prisoner than just the hours and the sweat all those involved spent on it, the quantity of footage shot and the props that were constructed. Take the recourse to the (19the century) past mentioned above, the surrealism ond so on. - BCNU!
ReplyDeleteHello Arno,
DeleteI've never seen 'the Prisoner' as a work of art, although I've known several aficianado's of the series who were also of that opinion. I'm of the opinion that because of all that sweat and toil exerted by many. The time taken to create the quality of film footage, a quite remarkable televison series was created. One that has withstood the test of time.
Regards
David
Be seeing you
Hello Everyone
ReplyDeleteI favor the idea that the choice of statues were a conscious one on Mr. McGoohan's part. Thus the symbolism is significant. I base this on the fact that the statuary seen in The General was specifically created for the scenes involved.
I will post more on the symbolism soon.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
DeleteI have to agree with nr6de on this one. I'm of the opinion that there was a large props list, and on that props list there were a number of statues and busts were called for. And in that regard they would use what was on hand at the time. I hardly think that McGoohan would have time to think consciously about the choice of statues, he had far more important things to think about. The props for the series would be down to the properties department.
Yes interpretation and discussion does enhance the viewers perception of the series, and that must not be forgotten. But in this case I'm sure that there's nothing significant in the choice of statutes, which were used to help dress the sets. However they are of historical people, and fit the scenes. They were all probably used in other television series, or feature films.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteAs a fictional politician once commented, "You might think that. I couldn't possibly comment!"
;-)
Noting the above I think you will admit that the props for The General were made to order?
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello David
ReplyDeleteFor reference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npMSgkSs2-E
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
DeleteThank you for the video clip. Yes I see what you are getting at. Three busts, one of a former Number 2 from 'The Chimes of Big Ben,' Number 6, and the current Number 2 in 'The General. These were commissioned for 'the Prisoner.' Like many of the drawing and paintings of Number 2 {Leo McKern} in 'The Chimes of Big Ben,' were produced by members and family of the production crew. But I find it difficult to think that all the busts and statues in the Village were produced in such a way. The style of the classical busts is different from those of Number 6 and the two Number 2's.
The bust of Number 6 isn't so rare, I have one of Number 6 here in my home, it's perfectly true.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDelete"Ahead of him we see two stone statues standing like sentinels.....and then another and then another...." ( from The Arrival original shooting script concerning the surveilance statues in The Village.)
In that The Arrival script was written long before the cameras rolled (as was the case of Free For All) there was certainly plenty of time to design the mentioned statues and plan the placement in the series rather than just hope for such specialized props to be laying about.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
DeleteThat's all well and good, but if that is the case, how do you account for the fact that the busts seen in 'the Prisoner,' especially that of Voltaire, have been used in other ITC television series, before 'the Prisoner' came along. The trouble is, I cannot be precise with the titles at the moment. I'll have to try and find specific instances.
People like David Tomblin or Micky O'Toole, would have been very well aware of what was in the props department, having worked at MGM for many years.
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDelete"Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers." - Voltaire
The quote above is probably why Voltaire was there watching No.6 ... I think you will also find Julius Caesar, Kuan Yin and Siddhartha in the mix. There is little doubt that the statues are from studio craft but if you look at the back of one of the rotating surveillance statues at about 28 minutes in you will find a clean (read new) draft line from the recent mold separation typical of a recent casting, probably plaster with a polished patina finish to create the look of age.
You will also note that the head bust of No.6 in Fall Out was also cast for just that purpose and was clearly the choice of Mr. McGoohan bringing the symbolic themes of the statues well into the climax episode of the series.
Here are some links that may suggest where Mr. McGoohan may have come by some of his ideas for the surveillance statues... first because of his performance in 'The Scarecrow Of Romney Marsh (Mr. McGoohan had read the original novel) he would have been part of the 'Disney family' and would have received constant updates on material such as the new developments in the 'Disney Haunted Mansion' (see link).
HAUNTED MANSION-Disney-Behind The Scene-Bill Justice+Osmonds
Mr. McGoohan would have knowledge of the 'look out scarecrow' seen in the film 'Night Creatures' as it was a scene taken from the novel (see link and seventh image down on webpage)..
http://www.davidlrattigan.com/hhcaptainclegg.htm
I think you will also find it of interest that both Siddhartha and Kuan Yin have their own version of 'The Village salute', it is a mudra that represents the idea of the transmission of .. Information (see links)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Ke_Lok_Si-Kuan_Yin_Statue-Daytime.jpg
http://theaffirmationspot.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/buddha_mudra.jpg
I hope you find the links informative and enjoyable.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
P.S. Voltaire as he appeared in earlier episodes of Danger Man was probably from an earlier cast from the same studio craft mold.
Hello Mister Anonymous,
DeleteAh, now we're getting to the nitty gritty of the matter. The fact that the properties department may have made casts of the busts from moulds I can understand, because they may break very easily, and that might have been the way of things. Because two of the busts, including that of Volatire have blinking lights in one of their eye sockets, and that effect would have been created for 'the Prisoner.'
The best way to get the aged patternation on busts as seen in 'the Prisoner,' is to smear yoghurt all over them, and leave them outside. But I do not believe that the choice of busts for 'the prisoner' was at all deeply meaningful. They used what was in the properties department, which they thought appropriate. The simple use of classical busts to dress sets.
Thank you for the links, I'll take a look when I get a free moment, and for the identification of three other busts used in the series. And yes, I know the scene you are referring to, the surveillance scarecrow.
Kind regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteThe deliberate choice of Voltaire and Freidrich III in the statues is made crystal clear in Free For All written and directed by Mr. McGoohan. Voltaire makes an appearance just as No.6 is led into the Therapy Zone just as Freidrich III shows up in the Rover cave.
Mr. Eric Portman was cast because he looks like Voltaire and Mr. McGoohan chose Freidrich III because the Emperor bears a strong resemblence to ...No.6 .. Compare Freidrich III to the character Dr. Ruth from the film Scanners or earlier Mr McGoohan's bearded appearance in the teleplay Sergeant Musgrave's Dance (in part a template for Fall Out.
Essentially what we see in Free For All is the doomed Freidrich III beIng led by the hand by the democracy despising Voltaire in a mock election to prepare No.6 for the yet to be occupied throne seen in the Council Chamber ( above No.2) ... A clear foreshadowing of the events in Fall Out and that No.6 was to become No.1 who ' ...Will no longer be mystery to you.... "if you know what I mean...". No.6 then goes on to demand like any monarch 'Obey me and be Free!!!".
The symbolism of the statues makes perfect metaphorical sense in context of the events witnessed in Fall Out, Voltaire's object lesson to a doomed Monarch who would turn sovereignty over to the democratic process. Voltaire's farce if you will or satire of the democratic process.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
DeleteI think Eric Portman would have been appalled by your suggestion that he was chosen for his role as Number 2 for the reason you give. Eric Portman was a great English film and theatrical actor, having starred in many films. Appearing in 'the Prisoner' was his first role in a television seires, why he decided to accept the role I do not know. But I'm sure it had absolutely nothing to do with Voltaire in any shape or form!
We all have our own personal beliefs about 'the Prisoner,' but this is one I cannot share. I'm sure Eric Portman gained the role as Number 2 for his great acting abilities, nothing more, nothing less.
Your idea of the symbolism of the busts is an intersting one, Voltaire and Freidrich III, over turning the democratic process, and Voltaire's satire of the democratic process, it's a theory I've not heard made mention of before. Just when you think you've queezed a subject dry, you find there's still a little left!
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDelete.... Makes perfect metaphorical sense in context of events witnessed in Free For All and Fall Out.....
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello David
ReplyDeleteThe shape and form that holds Mr. Portman's performance as No.2 to Voltaire is his remarkable likeness to the great thinker. Many an actor and actress have been cast because they bear a resemblance to their subject. They were also cast, as you point out for Mr. Portman, because they were great actors ( or actresses). The other factor that holds Mr. Portman to Voltaire is the character is written with the philosophical attributes of Voltaire in mind that are easily on display because of Mr. Portman's great craft and artistry.
I beg to differ with you about Mr. Portman and roles on television as he had a earlier roles such as his performance on the American television series 'Naked City'as Jayson Condon in an episode titled – 'The Pedigree Sheet' (1960). Mr. Portman was also in the Alfred Hitchcok Hour and numerous other television performances. He took the role of No.2 because of the reason you cited, he was a great actor.
The resemblance to Voltaire is rather obvious and is made clear by the appearance of the Voltaire icon just as No.6 enters the Therapy Zone.
The conjuring up of historical ancestors to stroll the stage is as old and honorable as Shakespear... a tradition shared by both Mr. McGoohan and Mr. Portman. The fact this happens in a television production does not diminish the power of that tradition.
Here are some links to show the Portman/Voltaire resemblance:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ko09bkZ7O-c/TKh7TJigQnI/AAAAAAAAAWs/ZgsYTXfZUOw/s1600/Eric_Portman.jpg
http://www.lessing-photo.com/p2/260303/26030324.jpg
http://www.lessing-photo.com/p2/260303/26030323.jpg
I am glad you enjoy the novelty of this idea as I think my next comments to be posted about what historical figure Leo McKern was to represent will be of further interest.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
P.S. Mr. McGoohan's own resemblance to Freidrich III meant he and Mr. Portman were both pretty much in the same stone boat. ;-)
Hello Mister Anonymous,
DeleteInteresting indeed. Certainly I find your train of thought highly original, as I've never heard of any enthusiast for 'the Prisoner' arriving at the conclusions you yourself have done.
I wonder what figure Number 2 {Leo MckKern} will be representative of - Faust perhaps!
Regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteThe likeness of the No.2 found in the Chimes of Big Ben, Once Upon A Time and Fall Out are to found in the features of Kaiser Wilhelm I, the father of Freidrich III. The battle of wills between father and son were part of histories drama.
You can see No.2 in his royal refinery in images from COBB.
I will elaborate on the above and the identification of the third historical player that we see in the climax events in Fall Out in my next post.
Here are some links for comparison of No.2 and the Kaiser:
http://content7.flixster.com/question/57/43/86/5743865_std.jpg
http://jmccrackenworld.com/KaiserWilhelmI.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14936671@N06/4703196471/lightbox/
http://www.anorakzone.com/prisoner/onceupon3.jpg
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
DeleteYou have certainly put some thought and effort into this new train of thought. Indeed I think I can say it is unique in the annals of appreciation for 'the Prisoner.' Of course if anyone knows different, pehaps they will correct me, but I've never known anyone draw such comparisons before.
It is certainly interesting, and having looked at the photographs via the links which you provided, and I thank you for, I can't say I'm one hundred percent convinced. But there is a likeness of a kind between Leo McKern and Kaiser Wilhelm I.
Kind Regards
David
BCNU
No one escapes the Spanish Inquisition! You seem to be well informed about monarchy in general and German, perhaps Austrian monarchs as well they being sculptured in particular. Far more than I in any case. Would you disclose a bit more about your identity how it came about? - BCNU!
ReplyDeleteHello David
ReplyDeleteThe final identification is that of Alexis Kanner as Wilhelm II (see links). The purpose of these identities, of all three Prussian monarchs, was to put on trial in the events we see in Fall Out ,the series of historical figures that lead up to act as allegories for the historical figures who laid the foundations for the madness we see in the 20th century and beyond. The climax we see in Fall Out is not a 'James Bond ending' but the descent of society into the chaos of WW1... all based on the unresolved ego conflicts of father to son conflicts.
Essentially these 3 historical figures serve the same purpose that various historical stand ins did in Dante's Devine Comedy with Voltaire acting as a double for Virgil who took Dante by the hand as his guide through the Inferno. In Fall Out we see all gathered in the 9th circle with all the minions gathered and No.1 sitting in for the great adversary.
Each monarch represents one of the three 'beast' that in turn represent 3 categories of the 7 Deadly sins.
In simple terms The Prisoner is a contemporary interpretation of Dante's Inferno. An example of this is found in the 'squaring the circle' paradox seen as a continues theme though out the series in the quote from the Devine Comedy:
To square the circle, nor for all his wit
Finds the right formula, howe'er he tries
The quote is interpreted as reflecting on the unsolvable nature of the human condition.
You can accept the above as # 666.66 of the 1000 way Mr. McGoohan felt The Prisoner could be interpreted.
Here are the links:
http://thelondonpubcrawlco.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/KAISER_WILHELM.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-_JJTghBtmLc/TyMufBpUR-I/AAAAAAAACCY/yeW5raVFEr8/s1600/1877_als_Student_in_Bonn.jpg
http://images.tvrage.com/people/24/69942.jpg
http://images.tvrage.com/people_galleries/24/69942/79752.jpg
http://www.wearysloth.com/Gallery/ActorsK/9066-4140.jpg
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
PS There is no special expert knowledge to ID the monarchs or the symbolic nature in the series. All three Kaiser's were paraded in history books in any western education often satirized by the likes of cartoonist Thomas Nash with one Kaiser even careening about on a Penny Farthing. The rest is a simple matter of taking Mr. McGoohan at his word that the symbols exist and to see where they are in plain sight. Such as the matters of the statues, squared circle etc.
Hello
ReplyDeleteApologies to any inquisitive Spaniards. It should read Divine Comedy not 'Devine'... ;-)))
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hi Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI've some complaints.
Your argumentation is very interesting indeed, and sometimes quite comprehensible. I also agree that The Prisoner is (sometimes, not always and not only) about the struggle to square the circle.
But what you say is that in the end we have three monarchs put to trial in Fall Out. But WHAT we have is three revolutionaries, even if one of them is . The president of the trial wants to preserve or restore order, not to punish or shuffle it.
I could agree if you wanted to state that The Prisoner and especially Fall Out is a statement against Monarchy and Dictatorship. But why play Number Six as a man fighting for his freedom and for humans to think for themselves, why make him a thinking man that resists against the system (that itself is a kind of monarchy or dictatorship) if his role is created to symbolize a monarch he wants to warn against??
Kind regards,
Jana
BCNU
For sure I appreciate trains of thought even those coming across a bit odd. It is debatable to which degree the bust were chosen out of intention or rather by chance. But here, sorry, I can't follow you. Alexis Kanner resembling Wilhelm II, the spiked helmet guy who brought you WW I, "Fall Out" and The Prisoner as such the contemporary equivalent of Dante's Inferno... That's pretty hard stuff I have to say. I kept thinking of "Fall Out" in particular as a reworking of sorts of a French Revolution tribunal. Because when No. 6, the Supervisor and the Butler arrive "All You Need Is Love" is heard which, in turn, the first chords of which are from the "Marseillaise", the French Revolution anthem. I do get your point in saying "The climax we see in Fall Out is not a 'James Bond ending' but the descent of society into the chaos of WW1..." But then "all based on the unresolved ego conflicts of father to son conflicts." No, neither WW I nor WW II were triggered by unsolved psychological problems. Not at all. There is a father - son conflict, between the Kid and the President, correct. But in this instance the specific period of the 1960s is on the agenda (the youth generation, popular culture, non-conformism etc.). At least this has been my reading of it. - BCNU!
ReplyDeleteHello All
ReplyDeleteRemember each of these 'monarchs' is on trial in the 9th circle of hell by Napoleon/Schnipps/President (further by cinematic language the in apprentice of Jack Hawkin's 'Interrogator' from the play 'The Prisoner') all found in the personage of the Ken Griffith (in the original script Schnipps was to be Hitler).
The events of WW1 followed the assassination of one of the members of the royal families of Europe and the inexperienced YOUTH of Wilhelm II, declared war (think IYF).
There is a clear 'father son conflict' between the former No.2 and No.6 (OUAT) and the fatherly advice No.6 offers the the 'young man' to slow down (FO).
No.6 as the silent monarch rejects the power offered by No.1 and gives new direction to the energies of chaos ( '..the war on everything..'-Hobbes) and simply does what some monarchs have chosen - he abdicates the throne in favor of an individual direction. In spite of the best efforts of The Village to 'educate' him otherwise (Voltaire).
The 'President' wants No.6 to 'take the throne' and 'lead or leave'... but only with the consent of 'The Village'... No.6 would have neither.
Monarchs often bemoan they are a 'Prisoner' and indeed a living sacrifice to their subjects... Freidrich The Great ( a personal friend of Voltaire) tried to escape his fate by fleeing to England with dire results.
Remember all the above is a way to see the symbolism of what we find in the statues and their clear likeness to the actors cast to play the roles.
I am glad that a train of thought is appreciated... now all one has to do is to get on board before it leaves 'The Village' station... ;-)
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
No matter what one thinks of your arguments in particular what we have here is truly a fine discourse. KW Zwo, as he is called sometimes, was 55 in 1914 when he precipitantly gave carte blanche to the Austro-Hungarian monarchy whose actions subsequently caused WWI. According to WP, "Bombastic and impetuous, he sometimes made tactless pronouncements on sensitive topics without consulting his ministers..." So, inexperienced he may well have been. And of course out of luck. But still, symbolism yes or no, naming Alexis Kanner in one breath of air with KW Zwo I cannot agree with you. What I wrote earlier isn't quite correct either. Because the father/son conflict of FO isn't just one of personal ties or dislikes but one of the generation conflict or crisis as evident in many Western societies during that period. As such the President is symbolically called "Dad" by the Kid. And in OUAT I can see a role play rather than a conflict of that kind. Called by some a conservative rebel, I take it that PMcG got most of his inspirations from that contemporary sources. The use of classical 19th century music or busts notwithstanding. Anyway, thanks for your lines that certainly open up (to me) uncharted territory. - BCNU!
ReplyDeleteHello nr5de
ReplyDeleteWilhelm II was 29 when he came to the throne many felt he lacked the experience to be Emperor and he remained petulant till his abdication.
It is a period of history and human nature that is on trial through allegorical stand ins. Much as is the case in the allegorical poetry of the Divine Comedy.
Yes, Mr. McGoohan had contemporary sources for each of his inspirations (such as the teleplay The Prisoner'). Would you care to hear about them? They are mostly as Mr. MCGoohan has said from around 1962, however some come a little earlier say around 1959, including the spy No.6 was based on and yes The Village not only was real it still exist.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
P.S. I think by the time you load up The Village band all those statues the Penny Farthings Edwardian costumes, etc I think you must admit that it is one long freight train of evidence with the next stop as Willoughby of the 9th Circle of the Inferno..... ;-). Well Come to uncharted territory.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Ahem, sorry wrong number last time: "nr6de" of course. Of course, I am not a number, I am a person... - BCNU!
ReplyDeleteHi Mr Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI guess nobody could get your train off its rails any more ;). But I must admit, I'm not totally convinced, and I'd rather take busses or drive cars. Maybe it's one rail, amongst others.
But,amongst other doubts: Number Six wasn't on trial in Fall Out, he watched it, as a kind of honorary president. Why should Friedrich III be a kind of honorary president at a trial at the ninth circle of hell? Why should Patrick McGoohan want that? I don't understand this, I really find it quite contradictory. Is it because I don't know Dantes Inferno?
And why should McGoohan want the three monarchs to be the good guys in the end?
BCNU
Jana
Hello Jana
ReplyDeleteYes, a speed learn version of the Divine Comedy (think wiki) would help to enjoy the suggestion of The Village as the Inferno.
You might enjoy the scene from First Men In Moon where a scientist thinks he has an audience with the supreme leader but is actually on trial, as is No.6..... still.
As to the monarchs as god guys, well if the former No.2 gets a pass why not the monarchs.
Think of all the above as just another way to enjoy The Prisoner.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hi Mr Anonymous,
ReplyDeletespeedlearn, really? Why do I doubt this? ;)
But I agree, one can see this as another way to enjoy The Prisoner. It seems to be a rich brain nut.
In my opinion some question the issue arises are all those doubts and questions during the whole discussion above, and some more. For example: Are there Call Sheets that call directly and explicitely for the busts you identified? Or at least witnesses who where asked for it? And how does Dantes Inferno fit with Shakespeares "As You Like It" that was cited in OUAT? What about the other episodes? If there are similarities to Dante, too, wouldn't that mean, that in a way some of the writers must have known about McGoohans plans? Did one of them ever talk about it? If not, why? Or are all similarities or symbols explainable by McGoohans influences? How?
Don't get me wrong, no need to anwer this, I just wanted to share my thoughts what might be other questions regarding this issue.
Regards.
BCNU
Jana
Hello Jana
ReplyDeleteYour questions are interesting valid and can be addressed.
What you will find is that Mr. McGoohan gave wide creative freedom to his writers. An example, the writer of Dance of the Dead drew from the film Orpheus and the film rendering of Daniel Webster and the Devil. One writer said he had 'not one scrap of paper' about The Prisoner and another reference referred to the series as a 'cosmic void'. It is a myth that the series was guided by the script editor in a struggle for control of the series.
The above said however Mr. McGoohan was in firm control of the direction and content of the series through his own authorship.
The basis for seeing the series as a contemporary rendering of the Divine Comedy is anchored in the process of how Mr. McGoohan worked in creative collaboration to create the template for the series.
Yes there are some 'witnesses'.
I will elaborate in my next post.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Jana
ReplyDeleteI have decided the best way to approach The Prisoner as The Divine Comedy is to conclude the insight that the No.2 played by Mr. Portman is indeed Virgil/Voltaire as intended by design by Mr. McGoohan.
If you read the original script of Free For All you will find that Mr. McGoohan gives a precise description of the Council Chamber, that Art Director: Mr. Jack Shampan, does not deviate from. The resemblance of the Council Chamber to two items is unmistakeable. One is the inner chamber of a Masonic Temple the other is the structure behind No.3 described by Mr. McGoohan as a 'throne'(see link).
The 'throne' mentioned above bears the distinctive features of the 'Eye of Providence' in the form seen on the US dollar bill with the famous phrase 'Novus Ordo Seclorum' a direct quote from the roman poet Virgil, Dante's, and by extension, No.6 guide through the Inferno.
http://images.unurthed.com/Campbell-Great-Seal-of-the-United-States-127.jpg
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/all_seeing_eye/prisoner04.jpg
Mr. McGoohan was meticulous in his in his description of his symbols in his very first script which was not altered when the production went into production and took great care in the shooting of the interior shots of Free For All which he directed.
In each of the scripts that Mr. McGoohan writes he has No.6 pass deeper into the substructures of The Village until his arrival in a cave like chamber not unlike the 9th circle of the Inferno (where there dwells No.1).
The escape that is made from The Village in all manner is like that of Virgil and Dante from the Inferno by falling through the center of the earth much as No.6 must escape down the long tunnel.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Jana
ReplyDeleteP.S. The wonderful thing about The Prisoner as the allegory, that Mr. McGoohan has said it is, there is always room for plenty of doubts, one way or another... in fact I think Mr. McGoohan more than welcomed the doubts of of Doubting Thomas or Doubting Thomasina, as however the case may be. ;-)
http://www.moviegoods.com/Assets/product_images/1020/549980.1020.A.jpg
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Jana
ReplyDeleteA correction, the statement the reads:
The resemblance of the Council Chamber to two items is unmistakeable. One is the inner chamber of a Masonic Temple the other is the structure behind No.3 described by Mr. McGoohan as a 'throne'(see link).
Should read:
The resemblance of the Council Chamber to two items is unmistakeable. One is the inner chamber of a Masonic Temple the other is the structure behind NO.2 described by Mr. McGoohan as a 'throne'(see link).
The caps are emphasis.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mr Anonymous,
ReplyDeletethat's a big jump your train took, isn't it? At least I can not see any rails that lead from Dante to Masonry..
So this is what you are going to.. I hope you don't mind, but I really don't want to discuss this theme. I know much to little about free masonry. The only thing I'm sure about that I see many contradictions and questions regarding this (For example McGoohan obviously did not want religion/church to be a theme in The Prisoner, did he?).
I agree that it might be an enthralling, but I doubt that it is a neccessary view. The problem I see with such symbols as the throne and the eye: Of course they can be linked to free masonry, there are so many things that can be and are linked, by hook or by crook, to free masonry. But they can also be seen as simply representing centralized power and control. In my opinion the symbolism of The Prisoner is rich enough even without referring to the free masons.
But I enjoyed our discussion, I did, and you made me curious about Dante. Thanks for this!
Kind regards,
Jana
BCNU
Hello Jana
ReplyDeleteApologies, the link to Freemasonry is that Voltaire was a Freemason, initiated by Benjamin Franklin.
The poetry and symbols are more cultural than religious.
Answers always raise more questions and then more doubt ... So we must be on to something.
I respect your position.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Mr. Anonymous, what if you collected the arguments you've brought forth and wrote an article especially on the McGoohan/Dante issue and the cirles of hell which I'd be prepared to publish on my website. Not many people will be familier with this subject. Perhaps you've taken a look at it. Please use the feedback form on my website. - BCNU!
ReplyDeleteHello nr6de and Jana
ReplyDeleteThank you nr6de for the invitation. I will see what I can put together and keep you informed.
Just a note to Jana ... the link of The Prisoner to Freemasonry symbolism would be no great leap for Mr. McGoohan or any other author who might have enjoyed the exploits of Sherlock Holmes or Riders of the Purple Sage, both sources that Mr. McGoohan has mentioned was part of his reading list.
An example of this would be the Sherlock Holmes novel The Valley of Fear (1914)
Among the clues are a card with the symbol V.V.341 scrawled upon it, referring to the Ancient Order of Freemen, the "The Scowrers", Lodge 341, Vermissa Valley, USA. "There is no town without a lodge" and "grips and passwords are helpful. A brand mark on the arm of the murder victim: an equilateral triangle inside a circle. [AQC xciii 3]
London : Smith, Elder, 1915,189p
"John McMurdo", said the voice, "are you already a member of the Ancient Order of Freemen?"
He bowed in assent.
"Is your lodge No. 29, Chicago?"
He bowed again.
The Freemasons were a rather common 'boogeyman' organization in various novels... the idea that Professor Moriarty might have some dealings with a rouge Lodge #341 and that The Village with all it's symbols, rituals,secret trials and salutes would be a very natural extension of that literary tradition.
Perhaps The Village is it's own Valley of Fear and is just Lodge #6. ;-)
Any way all the posts above are there to have a new way to look at and enjoy The Prisoner and to hopefully have some entertainment value for you.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Jana
ReplyDeleteP.S. I am certain the train is still on the track... at least more than these are ....;-))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73JORMGEA3w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cyhBroQsNA
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Jana
ReplyDeleteThe train has pulled into the station... just for your perusal..
http://www.bookmice.net/darkchilde/prisoner/pics/f423.jpg
http://whatisthepyramid.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/mexico.masonic.lodge.room.op.jpg
... or anyone else who might want to take a look into the Council Chamber....;-)
http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/freemasons-10.jpg
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hi Mr Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteI'd like to take the bogie.
Just to sum up what I got from the speedlearn: There are Symbols that might be seen as symbols of freemasonry. Referring to those symbols The Prisoner might be read as Anti-Masonry. Right? Ok, from my point of view it's an interessting approach.
But in my opinion despite from the symbols and their interpretation one has to be careful not to draw to many references and links. Not everyone who reads Arthur Conan Doyle or Goethe and perhaps even uses their symbols deals necessarily with Masonry ;). And I still think that McGoohan addressed a broader audience than Freemasons and Anti-Freemasons.
Kind regards,
Jana
BCNU
Hello Jana
ReplyDeleteThe good news is the symbols are neither pro or con Freemasonry they merely say that the No.2 of Free For All is Virgil/Voltaire who is No.6 guide in to the various circles of the Inferno.
The rooms of The Village are circular to represent a different part of the allegorical journey through the circles of the Inferno.
The Divine Comedy is considered to be a summation of the world view
Of the Middle Ages just as The Village is a summation of the society that would destroy the individual, '...a pocket democracy..a 20th century Bastille...' The Inferno is a prison for the 'devil' The Village is a prison for No.6/No.1.
None of this requires any specialized knowledge.
I am glad you are still enjoying the game.... I recommend you use your #6 iron on the next hole and I am certain you will get an Eagle.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hi Mr. Anonymous,
ReplyDeleteyes, I'm still on the track again. What I wanted to say is that we simply can not tell whether McGoohan wanted to refer to Freemasonry or not. Therefore I still tend to assume that not, or not conciously or intentionally. In my opinion we should not try to put theories in and pretend to read his mind. (Although reading this I have to admit that we are doing exactly this half the time...)
But despite my objections I'm appreciating the discussion :). I wanted to decrease the pace and wasn't sure what it is all about in your opinion. Your thoughts on The Divine Comedy and The Prisoner being summations of the society are a really good point.
What about a hole in #1 ;)?
Sincerely
Jana
Hello Everyone,
ReplyDeleteI'm highly delighted that my original blog post here has generated such a lively discussion amongst it's readers. So much so that I've not felt the need to put my two-penny-worth in. However I am a little concerned that this discussion has been going on for too long, and I think the time has come to draw this discussion to a conclusion, as I think everything on this particular point has been said.
I thank Arno and Jana for their contributions to this discussion, and Mister Anonymous for getting the train on the track, for setting the discussion alight via Dante's Inferno. But sorry as I am, I find I have to de-rail you at this point.
Very kind regards to all
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteOther than discussing what was the intended fates of the three rebels you are probably correct.
Thank you for your generous forum.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello David
ReplyDeleteI did think of one other theme, that of the Divine Twins, the use of good and bad twins in the series and the known influences on The Prisoner of Brave New World.
Other than that all has been well discussed above.
Thank you again.
Sincerely
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
DeleteMy pleasure. Although I never entered into the discussion myself, due to my lack of knowledge regarding Dante's Infurno, the Devine Comedy, Devine Twins, and Freemasonary, I did find it an interesting discussion, and I'm sure other readers of my blog did likewise.
I am only too pleased that friends and readers of my blog feel so much at home, that they can discuss something relating to 'the Prisoner' without my having to have any imput, and I'm sure there will be many more topics about 'the Prisoner' to discuss.
Very Kind regards
David
BCNU
Hello David
ReplyDeleteI thought you might find the amusing:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/us-election/9585034/US-presidential-debate-Mitt-Romney-to-attack-Barack-Obama-with-Joe-Bidens-words.html
It would be easy to picture this as part of Free For All.
Vote! Vote! Vote!
Sincerely (with a smile)
Mr. Anonymous
Hello Mister Anonymous,
DeleteThank you for the link. I've taken a look, and yes it's very amusing, in fact it's given me an idea for a piece of blog. And makes me wonder if that is the usual sort of thing to happen during Presidential election debates, as we see it between the two busts, and on Number 6's televison screen in 'Free For All.'
Thank you again.
Very kind regards
David
BCNU